Eclipse voting

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by Nascar1966

How could Conduit get Male Turf Horse Of The Year off of only one North American start? They should have some kind of rules like Canada has for thier version if im not mistaken isn't thier version called the Sovereign Awards?

I'll assume that you are a fairly new fan so I'll explain to you that horses winning the award off of only one NA start is hardly unprecedented. The list of such winners includes Miesque (twice), Arazi, Daylami, Johannesburgh, Ouija Board (twice), Kalanisi, Islington, Singspiel, and High Chaparral (twice). The interesting thing about Singspiel is that he never won a race in the United States during the year he won his award. He won a race in Canada and finished second in the BC but still won the award. The interesting thing about High Chaparral's second win is that he didn't even win his one race outright, finishing in a dead-heat with Johar in the BC yet still being voted as the NA champion. So having that in mind, you have your answer as to how Conduit could win the award. Whether you think it's fair or not or if you think the rules should be changed are a different discussion. Under the current rules, it's fair.

[Nascar1966]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

I'll assume that you are a fairly new fan so I'll explain to you that horses winning the award off of only one NA start is hardly unprecedented. The list of such winners includes Miesque (twice), Arazi, Daylami, Johannesburgh, Ouija Board (twice), Kalanisi, Islington, Singspiel, and High Chaparral (twice). The interesting thing about Singspiel is that he never won a race in the United States during the year he won his award. He won a race in Canada and finished second in the BC but still won the award. The interesting thing about High Chaparral's second win is that he didn't even win his one race outright, finishing in a dead-heat with Johar in the BC yet still being voted as the NA champion. So having that in mind, you have your answer as to how Conduit could win the award. Whether you think it's fair or not or if you think the rules should be changed are a different discussion. Under the current rules, it's fair.

Ive been following this great sport for years now. Let me ask you this if an American won a race like the Prix De La Arc Triomphe do you think it would will the Cartier Award off of just that one European start. Probably not. I dont think its right to reward a horse who has just one North American start. The list of the winners you i do remember especially the High Chaparral's dead heat with Johar. That was the year that Richard Mandella won four Breeders Cup race on one day. You gave a pretty opinion and I respect it, but I must say I also disagree with it.

[Danzig]

there were plenty of folks who thought GZ should have gotten HOY that year he ran once, that the performance was that good.
i disagreed with that as well-i don't think conduit should have gotten it-problem is, there was no compelling alternative.

[smuthg]

Originally Posted by Nascar1966

Ive been following this great sport for years now. Let me ask you this if an American won a race like the Prix De La Arc Triomphe do you think it would will the Cartier Award off of just that one European start. Probably not. I dont think its right to reward a horse who has just one North American start. The list of the winners you i do remember especially the High Chaparral's dead heat with Johar. That was the year that Richard Mandella won four Breeders Cup race on one day. You gave a pretty opinion and I respect it, but I must say I also disagree with it.

If, and BIG IF, Curlin would have taken to the turf and won the Arc, I have no doubt, that he would have won the Cartier Award...

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by Nascar1966

Ive been following this great sport for years now. Let me ask you this if an American won a race like the Prix De La Arc Triomphe do you think it would will the Cartier Award off of just that one European start. Probably not. I dont think its right to reward a horse who has just one North American start. The list of the winners you i do remember especially the High Chaparral's dead heat with Johar. That was the year that Richard Mandella won four Breeders Cup race on one day. You gave a pretty opinion and I respect it, but I must say I also disagree with it.

I can't comment completely on the question that you asked because I don't know the necessary criteria needed to be considered for a Cartier. I'd like to hope that the Europeans are smarter in this area and have made it mandatory to have the majority of your starts in Europe or at least more than one but I don't know. I do know that if an American went over and won once, he wouldn't win any awards but again, I don't know if it's because of rules or because they have more common sense. I wish the Americans did also. I personally don't like the fact that a one-time winner can walk away with the award and think the criteria should be changed. However, until it is, I also have a hard time not supporting a Euro winner. The criteria simply says that a horse has to have made at least one NA start and it's hard for me, in a situation like Raven's Pass vs. Big Brown, to believe that Raven's Pass is not the most deserving. I believe his one start was better than Big Brown's best was. Also, it's unfair to stop giving awards to current horses when others have won it without changing the system. One thing that the Euros would never do is open the floodgates from the start, which the Americans did. If you don't want to award Conduit this year, they should have never awarded any of those past winners.

[RollerDoc]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

I also have a hard time not supporting a Euro winner. The criteria simply says that a horse has to have made at least one NA start and it's hard for me, in a situation like Raven's Pass vs. Big Brown, to believe that Raven's Pass is not the most deserving.

Fortunately those voting didn't share this same opinion. Big Brown was the clear run away winner in the 3 yr old male category as he should have been. Certainly congratulations are in order to Raven's Pass for winning the BC.

[letswastemoney]

Originally Posted by RollerDoc

Fortunately those voting didn't share this same opinion. Big Brown was the clear run away winner in the 3 yr old male category as he should have been. Certainly congratulations are in order to Raven's Pass for winning the BC.

Well at least we all know Raven's Pass would crush Big Brown in a fair race.

Heck Tiago would crush Big Brown in a race with pace. Big Brown would have finished....7th or 8th...if he ran in the Classic healthy.

[RollerDoc]

Originally Posted by letswastemoney

Well at least we all know Raven's Pass would crush Big Brown in a fair race.

Heck Tiago would crush Big Brown in a race with pace. Big Brown would have finished....7th or 8th...if he ran in the Classic healthy.

I'm sure your scientific formula to make this absurd statement is qualified.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by RollerDoc

Fortunately those voting didn't share this same opinion. Big Brown was the clear run away winner in the 3 yr old male category as he should have been. Certainly congratulations are in order to Raven's Pass for winning the BC.

I'd say it's unfortunate because the horse that was the clear best 3yo male to perform in NA in 2008 didn't get the award and instead, our "champion" might have been the third best 3yo male to race in this country.

[Danzig]

i listened to the discussion on steves show about the eclipse voting, it was pretty amusing to say the least.

perhaps some changes are in order on who gets to vote. maybe those in the sport: owners, trainers, jocks, etc should be the ones voting-not 'turfwriters' who had no idea that ginger punch had a stellar year in '07, noy '08. or who vote for a horse because they cashed a ticket on a horse....
i thought having transparency on who voted for what horse/breeder, etc was a good idea-that way mayyou don't have someone voting for tale of ekati because he/she wouldn't want to have to explain.

[Linny]

It's not all turf writers. How about racing secretaries at Magna tracks who probably but Stronach over the top for Leading Owner and Breeder. Stronach didn't own or breed a champion but gets both honors? Stonerside bred Midshipman and Raven's Pass (not a champion but the winner of the BCC and a Euro G1) and gets nothing. Maybe it's because they sold out to Sh. Mohammed?
IEAH (who I'm not crazy about) campaigned 2 champions, won the Derby and Preakness, had the #2 juvie filly and a leading turfer (Kip) and got nothing.

[RollerDoc]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

I'd say it's unfortunate because the horse that was the clear best 3yo male to perform in NA in 2008 didn't get the award and instead, our "champion" might have been the third best 3yo male to race in this country.

Just another anti-Big Brown comment. His record speaks for itself. Big Brown was the best 3 year old in 2008.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by RollerDoc

Just another anti-Big Brown comment. His record speaks for itself. Big Brown was the best 3 year old in 2008.

I was hoping that you would get over it in 2009 but apparently not. It's silly to say that a vote in favor of another is being anti-Big Brown. There can be more than one good or deserving horse in a category, you know? Do I accuse you of being anti-Raven's Pass because you disagree with me? Evolve my friend.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by RollerDoc

Just another anti-Big Brown comment. His record speaks for itself. Big Brown was the best 3 year old in 2008.

it's no a pro or anti only group is it? there are shades of grey you know, especially where big brown is concerned.
and being the best of last years lot isn't exactly saying a bunch.