Dick Jauron/Turk Schonert/Jets/Dolphins playalong thread

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

He isnt better than Jeff Garcia. He isnt better than Trent Edwards. He isnt better than Jason Campbell. He is not better than Marc Bulger. He isnt any better than Shaun Hill or Tyler Thigpen.

He has more talent around him than all those guys and he played a much easier schedule.

Game managers are a dime a dozen in the NFL. The problem is that most teams arent good enough running or defensively to win with a game manager. Thats when the expectations change. Thats when coaches get fired.

He is better than Jeff Garcia 2008 version, he is as good as Trent Edwards and is better than Hill or Thigpen. Campbell stinks, cassell is way better than he is. Maybe you are forgetting that this guy NEVER played in college or the pros because of who he was playing behind. His season considering that fact alone shows his ability, period. Game managers are a dime a dozen? What league do you watch? He played an easier schedule? I understand that he is not a great QB but he played far better than average this season in his first game action ever. He is already pretty good and will get better. Jeff Garcia? Done. Tyler Thigpen? Huh? jason Campbell? Terrible decision maker. Wow.

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

He is better than Jeff Garcia 2008 version, he is as good as Trent Edwards and is better than Hill or Thigpen. Campbell stinks, cassell is way better than he is. Maybe you are forgetting that this guy NEVER played in college or the pros because of who he was playing behind. His season considering that fact alone shows his ability, period. Game managers are a dime a dozen? What league do you watch? He played an easier schedule? I understand that he is not a great QB but he played far better than average this season in his first game action ever. He is already pretty good and will get better. Jeff Garcia? Done. Tyler Thigpen? Huh? jason Campbell? Terrible decision maker. Wow.

You put Jason Campbell behind that line with those receievers in that system and you tell me who would be better. You put any of those guys named in that situation and you tell me who would be better.

Its not just Welker and moss- Its the line and the system as well.

You dismiss Shaun HIll. What kind of line was Shaun Hill playing behind? Who did he have to throw it to?

Game Managers are a dime a dozen. The only thing is that the game managers need a solid team around them to be successful. Hence...game managers. What is Kerry Collins? What is Chad Pennington? Gus Frerotte? Those guys arent really asked to make plays but yet their teams are in the playoffs.

Cassell, at best, is in the bottom third of the league...At best.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

You put Jason Campbell behind that line with those receievers in that system and you tell me who would be better. You put any of those guys named in that situation and you tell me who would be better.

Its not just Welker and moss- Its the line and the system as well.

You dismiss Shaun HIll. What kind of line was Shaun Hill playing behind? Who did he have to throw it to?

Game Managers are a dime a dozen. The only thing is that the game managers need a solid team around them to be successful. Hence...game managers. What is Kerry Collins? What is Chad Pennington? Gus Frerotte? Those guys arent really asked to make plays but yet their teams are in the playoffs.

Cassell, at best, is in the bottom third of the league...At best.

Interesting that you can make this statement that he is in the bottom 1/3rd of the league based upon an 90 QB rating in his only body of work that you or anyone else has ever seen. The guy who was named AFC offensive player of the week twice this year. You make it out like the offensive line makes the decisions with the ball. Cassell was sacked 47 times and SF gave up 55, not much of a margin considering how great NE's line supposedly is. Shaun Hill is and never has shown much, he isnt a rookie. Beating the Rams and a lame duck Skins team doesnt mean he is any good. Jason Campbell has always been a bad decision maker. Game managers are hardly a dime a dozen or guys like Collins wouldnt still be in the league and Vinny Testaverde wouldnt get a call every year. Pennington is the same guy who supposedly cant make the throws yet Miami hasnt been able to find a game manager for years before him. Gus Ferotte? you are kidding right?

Regardless of what people think there has never been a situation like this guy was put in and he played really well. Maybe i'm wrong but everytime I saw the guy play, he played well which is more than I can say for the QB of the Jets. Way more NFL QB's lose games than win them.

[Scav]

I would take Week 17 Cassell over Orton right now, no questions asked.

This was one of the rare times in where you could see him improve week to week. This was maybe because of the spotlight being on him, but how he played the last 6 games was unbelievable if you ask me, especially from a guy that threw 11 passes IN COLLEGE

Matt Cosell

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by Scav

I would take Week 17 Cassell over Orton right now, no questions asked.

This was one of the rare times in where you could see him improve week to week. This was maybe because of the spotlight being on him, but how he played the last 6 games was unbelievable if you ask me, especially from a guy that threw 11 passes IN COLLEGE

LOL. Orton was one of the worst QB's in the league. I would take Sam Cassell over Orton.

[Scav]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

LOL. Orton was one of the worst QB's in the league. I would take Sam Cassell over Orton.

He was outstanding (possible Pro-Bowl) until he got his ankle messed up.....He will improve, at least he better...He is pinpoint short wise but is not accurate after 20 yards

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by Scav

He was outstanding (possible Pro-Bowl) until he got his ankle messed up.....He will improve, at least he better...He is pinpoint short wise but is not accurate after 20 yards

At what point in the season was he outstanding or even remotely pro bowl?

I agree that there were points in the season where he looked to be adequate but never did i confuse him for being good let alone outstanding.

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Interesting that you can make this statement that he is in the bottom 1/3rd of the league based upon an 90 QB rating in his only body of work that you or anyone else has ever seen. The guy who was named AFC offensive player of the week twice this year. You make it out like the offensive line makes the decisions with the ball. Cassell was sacked 47 times and SF gave up 55, not much of a margin considering how great NE's line supposedly is. Shaun Hill is and never has shown much, he isnt a rookie. Beating the Rams and a lame duck Skins team doesnt mean he is any good. Jason Campbell has always been a bad decision maker. Game managers are hardly a dime a dozen or guys like Collins wouldnt still be in the league and Vinny Testaverde wouldnt get a call every year. Pennington is the same guy who supposedly cant make the throws yet Miami hasnt been able to find a game manager for years before him. Gus Ferotte? you are kidding right?

Regardless of what people think there has never been a situation like this guy was put in and he played really well. Maybe i'm wrong but everytime I saw the guy play, he played well which is more than I can say for the QB of the Jets. Way more NFL QB's lose games than win them.

The fact that Cassell was even close to 50 sacks is more a testament to the QB than the line. That same unit allowed just 21 last year and their schedule was more difficult then. What was the difference? QB. Nothing changed in the line. The decisions are exactly what were the difference. Decisions to hold the ball too long can be just as deadly as throwing it to the other team.

There are plenty of game managers in the NFL. Frerotte isnt one? His team is in the playoffs and he isnt asked to make many plays. He is the definition of game manager.

I say he is in the bottom third of the league. I will go through twenty that are better:

Would you take him over Phillip Rivers? No.

Jay Cutler? No.

Donovan Mcnabb? No.

Tony Romo? No.

Eli Manning? No.

Peyton Manning? No.

Ben Roethlisberger? No.

Jake Delhomme? No.

Matt Schaub? No.

Matt Ryan? No.

Aaron Rodgers? No.

Carson Palmer? No.

Chad Pennington? No.

Marc Bulger? No.

Tom Brady? No.

Matt Hasselbeck? No.

Drew Brees? No.

Kurt Warner? No.


Those guys are all better and i dont think there is much to debate. These guys are right there and i think are better although its debatable:

Trent edwards
David Garrard
Joe Flacco
Shaun Hill
Kerry Collins

That leaves him at the bottom third...at best.

You give all those guys moss, welker and that line and system and you tell me what they would do.

Originally Posted by dalakhani

The fact that Cassell was even close to 50 sacks is more a testament to the QB than the line. That same unit allowed just 21 last year and their schedule was more difficult then. What was the difference? QB. Nothing changed in the line. The decisions are exactly what were the difference. Decisions to hold the ball too long can be just as deadly as throwing it to the other team.

There are plenty of game managers in the NFL. Frerotte isnt one? His team is in the playoffs and he isnt asked to make many plays. He is the definition of game manager.

I say he is in the bottom third of the league. I will go through twenty that are better:

Would you take him over Phillip Rivers? No.

Jay Cutler? yes

Donovan Mcnabb? No.

Tony Romo? yes.

Eli Manning? No.

Peyton Manning? No.

Ben Roethlisberger? No.

Jake Delhomme? yes.

Matt Schaub? yes.

Matt Ryan? No.

Aaron Rodgers? yes.

Carson Palmer? No.

Chad Pennington? No.

Marc Bulger? yes.

Tom Brady? maybe.

Matt Hasselbeck? yes.

Drew Brees? No.

Kurt Warner? f.uck yea.


Those guys are all better and i dont think there is much to debate. These guys are right there and i think are better although its debatable:

Trent edwards
David Garrard
Joe Flacco
Shaun Hill
Kerry Collins

That leaves him at the bottom third...at best.

You give all those guys moss, welker and that line and system and you tell me what they would do.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

The fact that Cassell was even close to 50 sacks is more a testament to the QB than the line. That same unit allowed just 21 last year and their schedule was more difficult then. What was the difference? QB. Nothing changed in the line. The decisions are exactly what were the difference. Decisions to hold the ball too long can be just as deadly as throwing it to the other team.

There are plenty of game managers in the NFL. Frerotte isnt one? His team is in the playoffs and he isnt asked to make many plays. He is the definition of game manager.

I say he is in the bottom third of the league. I will go through twenty that are better:

Would you take him over Phillip Rivers? No.

Jay Cutler? No.

Donovan Mcnabb? No.

Tony Romo? No.

Eli Manning? No.

Peyton Manning? No.

Ben Roethlisberger? No.

Jake Delhomme? No.

Matt Schaub? No.

Matt Ryan? No.

Aaron Rodgers? No.

Carson Palmer? No.

Chad Pennington? No.

Marc Bulger? No.

Tom Brady? No.

Matt Hasselbeck? No.

Drew Brees? No.

Kurt Warner? No.


Those guys are all better and i dont think there is much to debate. These guys are right there and i think are better although its debatable:

Trent edwards
David Garrard
Joe Flacco
Shaun Hill
Kerry Collins

That leaves him at the bottom third...at best.

You give all those guys moss, welker and that line and system and you tell me what they would do.

Warner is 37, not much of a future with him, Palmer has serious elbow issues, Brady has the knee injury that may be worse than we know, He can be as good as Pennington with experience, ditto Delhomme, is better than Bulger at this point, is as good as Schaub.

What is your deal with Hill? Why do you think he is any good?

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Warner is 37, not much of a future with him, Palmer has serious elbow issues, Brady has the knee injury that may be worse than we know, He can be as good as Pennington with experience, ditto Delhomme, is better than Bulger at this point, is as good as Schaub.

What is your deal with Hill? Why do you think he is any good?

He is the epitome of a system QB that is successful because of what he has around him. True...he has to make the throws. But reads? Most of the time, he is given two reads max and goes through maybe one progression. Anything beyond that and he gets confused and then is sacked. But how hard is it throwing a three yard inside slant to welker? How hard is it throwing to Randy Moss?

How many times have we seen these types? AJ Feely come to mind? How about Steve Bono? Todd Bauman?

Perhaps im being too tough on him. We will see. He did his job this year and certainly his success was beyond anyone's expectations.

As for Hill, I dont think he is that good. Thats my point. Look at what he did with that line and that receiving corps. Inject Cassell into the niners this year and you think he could have done any better?

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

He is the epitome of a system QB that is successful because of what he has around him. True...he has to make the throws. But reads? Most of the time, he is given two reads max and goes through maybe one progression. Anything beyond that and he gets confused and then is sacked. But how hard is it throwing a three yard inside slant to welker? How hard is it throwing to Randy Moss?

How many times have we seen these types? AJ Feely come to mind? How about Steve Bono? Todd Bauman?

Perhaps im being too tough on him. We will see. He did his job this year and certainly his success was beyond anyone's expectations.

As for Hill, I dont think he is that good. Thats my point. Look at what he did with that line and that receiving corps. Inject Cassell into the niners this year and you think he could have done any better?

You cant compare him to those othr guys simply because he has never played a meaningful minute before this year. Let me say once more, there is no harder scenario that I can think of than a guy that has NO experience unexpectedly coming in to replace one of the all time greats on a high profile team and playing well. I can not think of a similar possible scenario in sports. Obviously breaking in with NE has some advantages but no one calls out Joe Montana and Steve Young for being system QB's with great receivers. The only numbers we have on the guy are pretty damn good and logically he will improve as he plays. No one said he was the savior but in football how many guys can really make that claim?