Three Year Old Champion.......

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by Phalaris1913

I'm not saying that I like it, just that that is probably what will happen.

Besides, to be fair, let's consider the reality of recent 3YO champions. It's not as though that many recent champion 3YO males had more than 2 G1 wins at 3, or any G1 wins after the classics. Having only two G1 wins, none later than May, did not prevent Smarty Jones, Funny Cide, Charismatic, Real Quiet, Silver Charm or Hansel from getting 3YO championships; Afleet Alex had only two, the latter of which came 11 days into June. Prairie Bayou had only a single G1 win in his career.

BB, you know I'd like to see 3YO males capable of being a dominating presence against their peers in the classics and able to beat realistic older horses, but we're in an unpleasant era when that kind of horse is pretty scarce. The last 3YO male to win at least two classics and win a G1 vs. older later at 3? I believe that would be Sunday Silence, and that's getting to be a seriously long time ago.

I'd like to know how many horses are on that list period. It's probably a very short list. Tabasco Cat came really close when he lost the 1994 Classic to Concern.

Originally Posted by King Glorious

I'd like to know how many horses are on that list period. It's probably a very short list. Tabasco Cat came really close when he lost the 1994 Classic to Concern.

Lots and lots ...

... in fact ... it was once fairly typical for the top Triple Crown performing 3YOS to beat up on the older horses in the Fall in the 1940's ... 1950's ... and 1960's.

Alsab, Assault, Phalanx, Citation, Capot, Hill Prince, Counterpoint, One Count, High Gun, Nashua, Bold Ruler, Sword Dancer, Damascus, and Arts And Letters ... all were 3YO champions who participated in more than one Triple Crown race ... and came back in the Fall and won G1 races over older horses.

Assault, Citation, Capot, Nashua, and Damascus all won two or more Triple Crown races ... and all the rest won one.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by Bold Brooklynite

Lots and lots ...

... in fact ... it was once failry typical for the top Triple Crown performing 3YOS to beat up on the older horses in the Fall in the 1940's ... 1950's ... and 1960's.

Alsab, Assault, Phalanx, Citation, Capot, Hill Prince, Counterpoint, One Count, High Gun, Nashua, Bold Ruler, Sword Dancer, Damascus, and Arts And Letters ... all were 3YO champions who participated in more than one Triple Crown race ... and came back in the Fall and won G1 races over older horses.

Assault, Citation, Capot, Nashua, and Damascus all won two or more Triple Crown races ... and nearly all the rest won one.

Phalaris had specifically said won at least two TC races and a grade one against older later in the fall of their 3yo season. That's what I was asking about.

Originally Posted by King Glorious

Phalaris had specifically said won at least two TC races and a grade one against older later in the fall of their 3yo season. That's what I was asking about.

Well ... I gave you five.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by Bold Brooklynite

Well ... I gave you five.

Short list as I suspected. Which makes it not so unusual that there has been a long gap since the last time it was done.

Originally Posted by King Glorious

Short list as I suspected. Which makes it not so unusual that there has been a long gap since the last time it was done.

I only did 1940-1969 ... shall I go further?

How about Secretariat, Spectacular Bid, Pleasant Colony, Spend A Buck*, and the aforementioned Sunday Silence? All multiple Triple Crown race winners who won G1's over older horses.

That brings the total to 10.


*Spend A Buck won the Jersey Derby over other Triple Crown horses .. instead of the Preakness ... collecting a big bonus.

[somerfrost]

Barbaro will be named 3 year old champ....he deserves it and will win it. I'm not going through this debate again, we have it every year. The only question left is who will be HOY? I think it's between two horses...Barbaro and Lava Man. Certainly if the Travers goes as many expect and a BCC win follows, a third name will be dropped in the hat, but a loss in either race and it's over!

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by somerfrost

Barbaro will be named 3 year old champ....he deserves it and will win it. I'm not going through this debate again, we have it every year. The only question left is who will be HOY? I think it's between two horses...Barbaro and Lava Man. Certainly if the Travers goes as many expect and a BCC win follows, a third name will be dropped in the hat, but a loss in either race and it's over!

any kind of upset of volponi proportions in the bcc, and barbaro will most likely get HOY as well as top 3 yo. his reputation, as well as his incredible strength that we've seen exhibited since the preakness will garner a ton of votes. that horse was the goods, and everyone knows it. the fact he couldn't finish out the year imo won't harm him come eclipse time. his courageous fight, his will to live, have gotten him more praise than even his overwhelming derby victory. that horse is one of a kind.

[Phalaris1913]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

I'd like to know how many horses are on that list period. It's probably a very short list. Tabasco Cat came really close when he lost the 1994 Classic to Concern.

Actually, given that US races have only been graded since 1973, there are only two horses other than Sunday Silence who won at least two classics and a G1 vs. older as a 3YO. Those two occasions were Spectacular Bid winning the Marlboro and Pleasant Colony winning the Woodward. (Secretariat won the Marlboro, but the race was not graded until its third running in 1975.)

Still, there have been 17 classic seasons since Sunday Silence, a span of time that saw 11 dual classic winners. Not one was able to win a G1 vs. older as a 3YO and of those, Tabasco Cat was the only one who placed in one. There were 17 seasons between 1973 and 1989, with the same number of horses that won at least two classic races, with three of them going on to win a G1 vs. older as a 3YO. Secretariat at least won a race of central importance (the Marlboro was ungraded, but was the richest race of the year). Affirmed and Alysheba both finished second in G1s vs. older. There simply was a greater presence of multiple classic 3YOs in the fall vs. their elders in the earlier period vs. the later period.

Those of us who came of age in racing in the 1980s and before remember champion 3YO males who were both dominant classic horses and credible late in the year. Expecting that, however, is probably obsolete, given the increasing rarity of classic winners having much of a post-classic career.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by Phalaris1913

Actually, given that US races have only been graded since 1973, there are only two horses other than Sunday Silence who won at least two classics and a G1 vs. older as a 3YO. Those two occasions were Spectacular Bid winning the Marlboro and Pleasant Colony winning the Woodward. (Secretariat won the Marlboro, but the race was not graded until its third running in 1975.)

Still, there have been 17 classic seasons since Sunday Silence, a span of time that saw 11 dual classic winners. Not one was able to win a G1 vs. older as a 3YO and of those, Tabasco Cat was the only one who placed in one. There were 17 seasons between 1973 and 1989, with the same number of horses that won at least two classic races, with three of them going on to win a G1 vs. older as a 3YO. Secretariat at least won a race of central importance (the Marlboro was ungraded, but was the richest race of the year). Affirmed and Alysheba both finished second in G1s vs. older. There simply was a greater presence of multiple classic 3YOs in the fall vs. their elders in the earlier period vs. the later period.

Those of us who came of age in racing in the 1980s and before remember champion 3YO males who were both dominant classic horses and credible late in the year. Expecting that, however, is probably obsolete, given the increasing rarity of classic winners having much of a post-classic career.

Thanks for the info. I actually agreed with u from the start in your general point. I just didn't know how often it happened earlier.

Originally Posted by Phalaris1913

Actually, given that US races have only been graded since 1973 ...

But it's not very difficult to determine which races before 1973 would have been G1 ... since most of the most important G1's today go back way further than that.

That's what I did in compiling my list from 1940-1989.

[Phalaris1913]

Originally Posted by Bold Brooklynite

But it's not very difficult to determine which races before 1973 would have been G1 ... since most of the most important G1's today go back way further than that.

That's what I did in compiling my list from 1940-1989.

I'm working on a project - though a few other things have kind of become more important right now - whereby I will be creating some sort of replicatable, objective rating of stakes races prior to 1973, most probably largely based on margins and caliber of beaten competition. I expect to do both single-race ratings (since any given running of a race may be much better or worse than typical for the event) along with a gradually evolving overall rating.

Still, there are certain events that one would expect to be G1-equivalent without the bother of comparing data of tens of thousands of starters and thousands of individual stakes events...