9/27 (OSA): Goodwood Day (6 Gr. I stakes)

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

Running against colts would have been great and all, but there's something to be said for females going off form after facing colts.

Bayakoa (after the Big Cap), Paseana (after the Pacific Classic), Sharp Cat (after the SA Derby), Eliza (after the SA Derby), and Surfside (after the SA Derby), all lost their next starts at short prices when back in against their own gender.

Maybe, with the division so deep right now, the connections didn't want to risk their tenuous hold on the title.

Bayakoa also ran second in the San Diego Hcp. She went on to do big things though later on. Same with Paseana. Sharp Cat rebounded to have an outstanding year. I don't know that Eliza went off form as much as she just lost to a very good horse in Dispute (Bonnie Miss, Gazelle, Beldame at 3, Spinster at 4). Her going off form could just as easily be attributed to facing Dispute as it is to facing Personal Hope. Surfside later ran a very good second in the BC Distaff and beat older males in the Clark. For every one of these that you mentioned, there's a Winning Colors, a Ouija Board, a Miesque, a Six Perfections, a Serena's Song, a Personal Ensign.....the list goes on and on. I don't think there is any proof whatsoever that says they will go off form after facing males. I think it's more about what competition you face and how hard you may have to run that may influence your immediate form coming back. If racing against the boys means you have to run a harder race, yes, it can be understood that the next one out may be a little flat. But sometimes, you have to run harder to win races in your own division than you do to win races outside of it. If they were worried about her being knocked out by a tough race against boys and suffering in her next start against her own sex, they could have tried it in June and had plenty of time to recover and show her best against the girls later, as each of your examples did.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

Bayakoa also ran second in the San Diego Hcp. She went on to do big things though later on. Same with Paseana. Sharp Cat rebounded to have an outstanding year. I don't know that Eliza went off form as much as she just lost to a very good horse in Dispute (Bonnie Miss, Gazelle, Beldame at 3, Spinster at 4). Her going off form could just as easily be attributed to facing Dispute as it is to facing Personal Hope. Surfside later ran a very good second in the BC Distaff and beat older males in the Clark. For every one of these that you mentioned, there's a Winning Colors, a Ouija Board, a Miesque, a Six Perfections, a Serena's Song, a Personal Ensign.....the list goes on and on. I don't think there is any proof whatsoever that says they will go off form after facing males. I think it's more about what competition you face and how hard you may have to run that may influence your immediate form coming back. If racing against the boys means you have to run a harder race, yes, it can be understood that the next one out may be a little flat. But sometimes, you have to run harder to win races in your own division than you do to win races outside of it. If they were worried about her being knocked out by a tough race against boys and suffering in her next start against her own sex, they could have tried it in June and had plenty of time to recover and show her best against the girls later, as each of your examples did.

Well, just to be fair, 3 of the horses you mentioned were Europeans (yes, its a big difference), one was one of only 3 fillies to win the Derby, and the other was the only horse to retire unbeaten in major competition in over 90 years.

Personally, had the BC not been in CA, the only gripe I'd have is that Zenyatta didn't run at either Saratoga or Belmont, the way Azeri didn't and the way Ribboletta did. Your suggestion she should have run in the Hollywood Gold Cup is a bit outlandish, seeing how that race is 10f and at that point she had yet to run further than 8.5f. The Pacific Classic would have been fine, I suppose, if a little late in the season, but we all know what John Shireffs thinks about the Polytrack there. He wouldn't even start Tiago on it last year.

[Bobby Fischer]

If Zenyatta is impressive in the Lady's Secret - what next ?

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by Bobby Fischer

If Zenyatta is impressive in the Lady's Secret - what next ?

Rematch with Ginger Punch so she can have her rightful coronation before everyone jumps the gun (she's only run 7 times), wanting her to run outside her division before she's even earned a championship.

She can run against colts next year. Or in the Clark.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

Rematch with Ginger Punch so she can have her rightful coronation before everyone jumps the gun (she's only run 7 times), wanting her to run outside her division before she's even earned a championship.

She can run against colts next year. Or in the Clark.

Rightful coronation? Ok so what if Ginger Punch wins the race? If Ginger Punch wins, she's the champion. Even though they would be tied and Zenyatta kicked her ass on dirt. So in order for Zenyatta to win the title, she's got to beat her twice but for GP to win it, she's only got to win once. Yeah, that's fair.

I think that making the point that she's only run seven times so far is not looking at the state of today's game. If this were the 80's or early 90's, that would be different. But in today's game, seven races is a lot. Consider how many Ghostzapper had. Smarty Jones. Bernardini and Invasor. Candy Ride. Afleet Alex. Barbaro. Curlin. Big Brown. You can't compare today's standards to those of the past.

Also, what's so wrong with running outside of your division before you've won a championship? Many great fillies have done that.

[RolloTomasi]

Rightful coronation? Ok so what if Ginger Punch wins the race? If Ginger Punch wins, she's the champion. Even though they would be tied and Zenyatta kicked her ass on dirt. So in order for Zenyatta to win the title, she's got to beat her twice but for GP to win it, she's only got to win once. Yeah, that's fair.

So...if Summer Colony didn't bother running in the 2002 BC Distaff, she could have won the Eclipse, since she beat Azeri in their only meeting at Santa Anita? Good thinking.

I think that making the point that she's only run seven times so far is not looking at the state of today's game. If this were the 80's or early 90's, that would be different. But in today's game, seven races is a lot. Consider how many Ghostzapper had. Smarty Jones. Bernardini and Invasor. Candy Ride. Afleet Alex. Barbaro. Curlin. Big Brown. You can't compare today's standards to those of the past.

That wasn't my point. All those horses you mentioned (two or three of which broke down) were males that weren't asked to run outside their division (aside from Curlin--maybe Candy Ride if you want to get picky). Zenyatta having to face males after just a handful of starts during her first full season of racing is brazen at best, reckless at worst.

Also, what's so wrong with running outside of your division before you've won a championship? Many great fillies have done that.

Name one that wasn't trained by D. Wayne Lukas.

[Indian Charlie]

According to another thread here, Pro Ride is 87% dirt, which makes it a lot more plausible that HL can beat Zenyatta here.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

Rightful coronation? Ok so what if Ginger Punch wins the race? If Ginger Punch wins, she's the champion. Even though they would be tied and Zenyatta kicked her ass on dirt. So in order for Zenyatta to win the title, she's got to beat her twice but for GP to win it, she's only got to win once. Yeah, that's fair.

So...if Summer Colony didn't bother running in the 2002 BC Distaff, she could have won the Eclipse, since she beat Azeri in their only meeting at Santa Anita? Good thinking.

I think that making the point that she's only run seven times so far is not looking at the state of today's game. If this were the 80's or early 90's, that would be different. But in today's game, seven races is a lot. Consider how many Ghostzapper had. Smarty Jones. Bernardini and Invasor. Candy Ride. Afleet Alex. Barbaro. Curlin. Big Brown. You can't compare today's standards to those of the past.

That wasn't my point. All those horses you mentioned (two or three of which broke down) were males that weren't asked to run outside their division (aside from Curlin--maybe Candy Ride if you want to get picky). Zenyatta having to face males after just a handful of starts during her first full season of racing is brazen at best, reckless at worst.

Also, what's so wrong with running outside of your division before you've won a championship? Many great fillies have done that.

Name one that wasn't trained by D. Wayne Lukas.

Personal Ensign is one. Excellent Meeting. Royal Heroine. A lot of Europeans. Safely Kept. Very Subtle. Xtra Heat. Honest Lady. Eight Belles.

The Summer Colony argument is not even close to the same thing. You might as well have said Lorenzoni should have gotten it over Easy Goer since he beat him. That's not what I'm saying at all. We are talking about comparable records in top class races between two talented mares. I'm not saying that Zenyatta's one win should give her the automatic advantage. It could have been an off day for Ginger Punch. But why should GP beating her to even the score, on a synthetic track at that, mean that she's the champion? It's sort of like when Ohio St and Michigan were both at the top of the polls in football. Ohio St. had played and beaten Michigan yet people were saying that Michigan deserved a spot in the title game to play them again. If that would have happened and Michigan had won, they'd be the champs even though the score was 1-1. Ohio St would have had to beat Michigan twice to be the champion. Same here. Zenyatta shouldn't have to beat GP twice to win a title when it would only take one win for GP to be the champ.

My point about the number of starts thing is that in years past, even those males wouldn't have been asked to do as much as they did so soon in their careers. But it's a different game now. The same things that horses used to be asked to do 8-10 races into a career, they are now being asked to do 3-5 in. In years past, horses raced 30+ times over multiple seasons so there was no rush to do things. Now, when you're looking at a 10-15 race career max, the timetables are pushed way up.

[Pedigree Ann]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

[i]

Name one that wasn't trained by D. Wayne Lukas.

Cocoa Beach (CHI), Personal Ensign, Pride, My Juliet, Relaxing, Summer Guest, Susan's Girl, Very Subtle, Xtra Heat, Desert Stormer, Typecast, Persian Tiara, Ta Wee, Shuvee, This is off the top of my head, which tends to dwell on the days of my youth.