3 year old filly Eclipse?

[hockey2315]

Why exactly?

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by hockey2315

Why exactly?

Yes, she won the Davona Dale at Fair Grounds. That's a Grade 2. The other fillies bettered that accomplishment.

All her other wins are within the sprint division.

Put it this way, should Big Brown, winner of the Monmouth Stakes on grass, be considered seriously for the Turf Eclipse because he also won the Kentucky Derby and Preakness?

No.

[blackthroatedwind]

Just curious.....what would your position be on these same two horses ( Proud Spell and Music Note ) if Proud Spell was an AP Indy and Music Note was a Proud Citizen?

[Betsy]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Just curious.....what would your position be on these same two horses ( Proud Spell and Music Note ) if Proud Spell was an AP Indy and Music Note was a Proud Citizen?

I don't see why my answer in that regards would be relevant. I posted this question here because I thought (and I was right) that I could get honest answers without being picked on (I'm not saying you are, but I am tired of having to answer for my fandom). All I really said in this thread is that I think MN should be considered on equal footing with PS. I don't think that is so ridiculous a notion, certainly not so ridiculous that it's apparent that anyone that thinks that must be biased towards that filly because of her sire.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Just curious.....what would your position be on these same two horses ( Proud Spell and Music Note ) if Proud Spell was an AP Indy and Music Note was a Proud Citizen?

you really have to ask?

[Danzig]

regarding the actualy discussion, i think indian blessing has an outside shot at the eclipse--but she'd need help. both current front runners would have to fade, and indian blessing probably would have to beat males in the bc to win the eclipse. even if she did that, the bias against sprinters vs classic horses might be too much to overcome.

i still think right now proud spell has the nod-but there is still racing left to do, so we'll see.

[Indian Charlie]

Since PS doesn't seem to like synthetic, I'm going out on a limb here and say she's going to be hard pressed to beat Zenyatta in the distaff. That almost rules her out for the Eclipse.

Music Note, while not as good a resume this year, is helped by PS losing today. She's an unknown on synthetic, but AP Indy seems to do okay on the fake stuff. Still, will she beat Zenyatta?

Indian Blessing looked just okay in winning over the synthetic, but at least she did win. I don't see any Zenyatta caliber horses in either sprint race, so who knows.

[hoovesupsideyourhead]

proud spell gets it imo.......

[zippyneedsawin]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

Since PS doesn't seem to like synthetic, I'm going out on a limb here and say she's going to be hard pressed to beat Zenyatta in the distaff. That almost rules her out for the Eclipse.

Music Note, while not as good a resume this year, is helped by PS losing today. She's an unknown on synthetic, but AP Indy seems to do okay on the fake stuff. Still, will she beat Zenyatta?

Indian Blessing looked just okay in winning over the synthetic, but at least she did win. I don't see any Zenyatta caliber horses in either sprint race, so who knows.

I get what you're saying, but, again, I don't think another loss from PS rules her out of the eclipse if both Music Note and Indian Blessing lose in the BC as well.

[hockey2315]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

Yes, she won the Davona Dale at Fair Grounds. That's a Grade 2. The other fillies bettered that accomplishment.

All her other wins are within the sprint division.

Put it this way, should Big Brown, winner of the Monmouth Stakes on grass, be considered seriously for the Turf Eclipse because he also won the Kentucky Derby and Preakness?

No.

What about Wait a While in '06? And your Big Brown analogy isn't analogous. . .

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by hockey2315

What about Wait a While in '06? And your Big Brown analogy isn't analogous. . .

You talk about the 2002 crop being bad, how about the 2006 group? Lemons Forever, Bushfire, Pine Island? Personally either of the last two would have been acceptable since they won multiple Grade 1s (Smuggler won the award for Christ's sake)...

I don't think either Proud Spell, Music Note, or Eight Belles are mere ham sandwiches in this instance. The voters don't really have to look beyond the obvious races to find a suitable champion.

Since they've set up a female sprint division, Indian Blessing has become a specialist the way Xtra Heat was. She'll probably get her championship so long as she doesn't get tagged late by Intangaroo in the BC.

[ateamstupid]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

Yes, she won the Davona Dale at Fair Grounds. That's a Grade 2. The other fillies bettered that accomplishment.

All her other wins are within the sprint division.

Put it this way, should Big Brown, winner of the Monmouth Stakes on grass, be considered seriously for the Turf Eclipse because he also won the Kentucky Derby and Preakness?

No.

She won the Silverbulletday, a Grade 3, at Fair Grounds. The Davona Dale is run at Gulfstream.

The Big Brown analogy makes no sense. Last time I checked, the Eclipse is for best three-year-old filly, not best three-year-old filly router. Indian Blessing winning the Three-Year-Old Filly Eclipse would be nothing like Big Brown winning the Turf Eclipse.

Originally Posted by Betsy

Indian Blessing won a stake or two at the FG this year (one of which was ungraded, I think), the Test, another sprint stakes (not major) and this race today. If she wins the Filly and Mare Sprint, she deserves to be on the ballot for sure for 3 year old filly champion, but no - I don't think her resume stacks up as champion filly, not when PS and MN have done so much.

Indian Blessing has won two Grade 1's, two Grade 2's, a Grade 3, run second in a Grade 1 and second in a Grade 2. That resume isn't comparable to Music Note's? How do you figure?

And what if Indian Blessing wins the BC F&M Sprint and neither Proud Spell nor Music Note win the distaff? Indian Blessing will have two wins over elders, while Proud Spell and Music Note will have zero.

Originally Posted by hoovesupsideyourhead

proud spell gets it imo.......

Gun to my head, I'd say so too, but Jones' comments that she has it 'sewn up' were ridiculous.

[Danzig]

too true on indian blessing-she tried elders and won, while the others have stuck to their own age group.
i would have no problem at all with IB winning the eclipse.

and i think proud spell has more wins than music note has starts. and many forgive her loss to music note, as she had so much trouble-while in the music note loss to proud spell, music note had no excuse, she just couldn't pass a gutsy filly.

[Pedigree Ann]

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

She won the Silverbulletday, a Grade 3, at Fair Grounds. The Davona Dale is run at Gulfstream.

Indian Blessing has won two Grade 1's,.....

The Prioress is a totally bogus G1, and the Test is questionable, too. And, yes, classic-distance animals will ALWAYS have the advantage over sprinters because that is the what being a Thoroughbred is all about - having the speed AND the stamina to keep going to win at a distance of ground in the best races. Pure sprinters, however talented, are lacking an important element in their makeup.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by Pedigree Ann

The Prioress is a totally bogus G1, and the Test is questionable, too. And, yes, classic-distance animals will ALWAYS have the advantage over sprinters because that is the what being a Thoroughbred is all about - having the speed AND the stamina to keep going to win at a distance of ground in the best races. Pure sprinters, however talented, are lacking an important element in their makeup.

The Test is a very important race. 7 furlongs is basically the one distance where routers and sprinters are in neutral territory. If you look at the last 30 Test winners, route fillies have won their fair share (Go For Wand, Versailles Treaty, Society Selection, November Snow, Lady's Secret, etc.). Its also produced 2 BC Sprint winners in Very Subtle and Safely Kept, as well as the dam of at least one BC Sprint winner (Blitey, who produced Dancing Spree who was also a Grade 1 winner at 10f). This latter factoid brings up another interesting characteristic of the Test, its produced several outstanding broodmares in its history.

[Betsy]

eh, I don't care that everyone knows that I love AP Indy. That doesn't bother me. It only bothers me (and not just when it comes to horse racing) when people think I can't be objective because of my rooting interest.

I think I was being objective in this case, but it's apparent that I was probably the only one who thought so. Thus, I haven't reposted in this thread. I just don't like banging my head against the wall, ,especially when posting on message boards is supposed to be relaxing and fun. It's not fun when I have to constantly explain myself.

[RolloTomasi]

I thought the logic was flawed from the get-go.

Trying to present Proud Spell's late season loss in the Cotillion (to a potential up-and-comer within the division no less) as though it was a defining race in her campaign is preposterous when the very same filly, one start earlier stuck it to a previously untested, could-be-any-kind Music Note in the Alabama. All this at a distance and with a race setup that favored the latter.

What we got in the stretch at Saratoga was the defining race for the division. One filly, all heart and willing to lay her body down pole after pole, and the other her perfect foil, of limitless talent and pedigree but lacking in true mettle (typical of the stallion and so many of his offspring).

[Betsy]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

I actually thought you were being objective. Now, that said I thought the question BTW asked was a fair one. And when you seemed to get upset about it, I kind of changed my mind. There's nothing wrong with not being objective when it comes to something you love. But, if you are going to make it obvious that you are a fan of certain horses because of their sire. It's only natural for people to assume when you discuss such horses, that you are being a bit biased.

Either way, nothing to get too upset about. I don't think anyone was trying to be rude or mean. Just trying to see if the sires were reversed, if you would still feel the same way. I actually think Music Note is better. But they are both very nice fillies and as a fan of racing was impressed with the show that put on in the Alabama.

I didn't think Andy was being rude at all, nor was anyone else. I guess I'm so used to having to defend myself that I got my back up. I'd like to think that I would feel the same way if the sires were reversed. I realize the KY Oaks/Alabama double is hard to beat, but Music Note did beat PS and I don't think it's fair to hold PS's bad trip against her and assume that PS would have won. Flute won the KY Oaks and Alabama a few years back and did not get the title. She didn't run that well in finishing 2nd to Exogenous in the Gazelle and then I believe she ran poorly in the Beldame. In this case, Proud Spell has other wins on her resume this year besides those two races, so obviously she'd be a worthy champion, but she just ran poorly in the Cotillion against horses she was supposed to beat handily. Music Note did lose to PS, but she ran well in that race (I was upset by a devastating nose loss immediately after that race and I was disappointed in her. I've come to a different conclusion now).

[CSC]

The Eclispe will probably be decided at the Breeders Cup, alot of the fillies mentioned here all have good points to be chosen, if ever the concept of the BC was a good one it is for this division, I certainly couldn't decide right now.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by CSC

The Eclispe will probably be decided at the Breeders Cup, alot of the fillies mentioned here all have good points to be chosen, if ever the concept of the BC was a good one it is for this division, I certainly couldn't decide right now.

in most years, you would be correct, the bcd would decide. but this year of course will be different, and some of the fillies and mares at the top of their division may not even run. and if they do run, but falter on an unfamiliar surface......ought to be interesting.