Legends swing into gavel action

[Kasept]

I think Gentry-Gaines are making the bloodstock calls...

[ELA]

Originally Posted by Kasept

I think Gentry-Gaines are making the bloodstock calls...

Correct, and with the G-G advisory team.

Eric

[VOL JACK]

Originally Posted by Kasept

I think Gentry-Gaines are making the bloodstock calls...

Well they need to realize that most of the horses they bought, at least on day one, were bred for turf. They have mangained to hire the 3 worst turf trainers of the modern era. They might want to expand the legend posse to 4 and hire Mott or Motion.

[Cannon Shell]

I predict that exactly one of thse colt will turn out to be a real good horse because that will fit with the Freddy mo 90/10 theory.

[VOL JACK]

Its amazing that Lukas still gets good horses.

Id like to meet the sharpies that are investing mega-bucks with this venture.
I have some ocean front property here in middle TN for sell.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by VOL JACK

Its amazing that Lukas still gets good horses.

Id like to meet the sharpies that are investing mega-bucks with this venture.
I have some ocean front property here in middle TN for sell.

It still seems hard for them to make any money with this unless they get really lucky and come up with a real star colt.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

I can definitely see your point, but these guys can train anything IMO. it just so happens that most of their clients are trying to win a Derby. Remember up until last year Mott couldn't win with a 2 year old? I know he had a horrendous Saratoga this year, but remember what his babies did last year?

Actually most of them grind them up trying to be a TC horse. Turf horses generally involve patience and these guys usually have big crops coming in and simply dont have the patience to wait on turf horses. Nick hates poly but he doesnt exactly adore turf either. I cant remember the last good turf horse Lukas had (Steinlen?) and Baffert has had some luck i believe with a few turf fillies?

[Benny Leger]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Actually most of them grind them up trying to be a TC horse. Turf horses generally involve patience and these guys usually have big crops coming in and simply dont have the patience to wait on turf horses. Nick hates poly but he doesnt exactly adore turf either. I cant remember the last good turf horse Lukas had (Steinlen?) and Baffert has had some luck i believe with a few turf fillies?

I'm most likely looking at this bass ackwards, but doesn't it seem like these guys could afford to be patient with young horses because they "do" continually get big crops and can send a lot of runners to the gate.

[Linny]

Originally Posted by Benny Leger

I'm most likely looking at this bass ackwards, but doesn't it seem like these guys could afford to be patient with young horses because they "do" continually get big crops and can send a lot of runners to the gate.

Trainers, to a great extent have to do what owners want. Sure, some can say "Hey this is what your horse needs, take it or leave it" but most (if they want to keep training horses) do what the owners want. Most owners (yes, even the very wealthy ones) want to earn money and or glory with their stables and want to do so fast. They want to win races like the Derby and the associated preps (Champagne, BCJuvie, Wood Memorial, Blue Grass) and guys like Zito, Baffert and DWL have proven that they can do this. If the owner wants to run in those races, that's the track the trainer points them for.
If guys like these say to these owners looking at their 2yo's at Saratoga, "he's a nice colt, I think he might be a nice turf router at age 4" they won't be training for that owner for long!

As for "butchery" a trainer that is a media magnet/media seekeer, is bound to be reported on when one goes bad. It gives the impression that the closed mouth guys (I include Pletcher in this category) never have a horse go bad or fail to live up to promise.
In the last 3 years, two of the most prominent breakdowns were Barbaro and Chelokee, yet Matz is a "fine horseman" and Zito is a "butcher?" Do explain.

Some times we tend to see beautifully bred babies and assume that if they don't pan out, that they were "destroyed" by the trainer. Many of them are just slow. They are not as good as their pedigree and looks would indicate. Hey, Jalil cost $9.7m and was just third at Suffolk to Judith's Wild Rush. Maybe he's just slow!

[VOL JACK]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

Agreed for the most part. I was just saying that these guys have proven they can train just about anything so to label them as bad anything seems off. And Marlin was pretty good for Lukas although that was at least 10 years ago. And didn't Zito train a filly that won the Flower Bowl about 10 years ago? Name escapes me.

Look at the stock they get to work with, all blue-bloods. They basically get to go to any sale they want with an open checkbook. Between the 3, there are more butcher jobs and underacheiving horses rather than good horses being trained into something noteworthy. JMHO

[Scav]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

Just curious, not counting Lukas, because I agree, can you name me a few horses Zito butchered or underachieved with? Or baffert for that matter? Just because they sell for a lot of money doesn't mean they have talent as you know. I'm not making excuses, but what more could Zito or Baffert have done in their career?

By your line of thinking Pletcher underachived with The Green Monkey, when in reality the horse was just a rat. he couldn't help it.

Baffert had that Mr. Sekatichi horse I think. I can't think of many if any from zito, he doesn't seem to spend these crazy amounts....

and after reading this again, you meant them having talent....

[Merlinsky]

Originally Posted by Scav

Baffert had that Mr. Sekatichi horse I think. I can't think of many if any from zito, he doesn't seem to spend these crazy amounts....

It was Mr. Sekiguchi named after FuPeg's owner who probably handed Baffert this horse on a silver platter. I'm sure they don't like turning down an owner willing to send them an expensive horse if only for the gamble that a long term professional relationship could result not to mention that never-dying notion they have that the most expensive might somehow end up being worth it. He did the best he could (the horse was no The Green Monkey, he was just not as good as his price would suggest not that he didn't try hard from what I remember reading). Hideyuki Mori bought him on behalf of Sekiguchi so when did Baffert enter the scene? The colt ran a 1:08 2/5 for 6 furlongs but got a tibia injury. I'll assume he was training in California and this all happened prior to the synthetic installation didn't it? I wonder if that would've affected his longevity, given how fast Baffert works his young'uns.

[Cannon Shell]

I would think if they butchered one you would have never heard of them because they were butchered, no?

[VOL JACK]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

You know what I mean. If it's so obvious that these guys underachieve with horses name me a few that had talent, but were ruined by their trainer.

When I said Butchered I was refering to DWL. As far as underacheivers Id count DWL whole barn. Except all the M.L. Whitney crows.

[Scav]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

That horse is a great example though. Was it Baffert's fault he sucked?

It really depends on how you look at it. There is so much that goes into these sales and how trainers get horses.

I will say it this way, if Baffert bought the horse, on his recommendation, and did all the prep work to get him to the races, then yes, it is his fault.

But if someone bought the horse and then sent him to Baffert race ready, then it isn't his fault.

If that makes any sense.

[VOL JACK]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

Just curious, not counting Lukas, because I agree, can you name me a few horses Zito butchered or underachieved with? Or baffert for that matter? Just because they sell for a lot of money doesn't mean they have talent as you know. I'm not making excuses, but what more could Zito or Baffert have done in their career?

By your line of thinking Pletcher underachived with The Green Monkey, when in reality the horse was just a rat. he couldn't help it.

The difference is that "the legends" usually pick their horses out for their clients at the sales. Which accounts for the under-achieving. Its the same as when these NFL coaches want to do all the drafting. It never works out.

As for The Green Donkey, he was the result of a pissing match of 2 ego-maniacs that actually look at the times in 2yo in training sales while they are being ridden like they are in the all-american fut. at Riodoso.

[VOL JACK]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

So you can't name any. That's fine. I understand the way the sales work. It seems like you guys are angry they seemingly have an open check book. I get that, I can't stand Godolphin for the same reason. But Zito and Baffert seem different IMO. Now that Bob Lewis has passed, Baffert doesn't seem to have a lot of multimillion dollar horses and Zito never really has. They get a lot of horses, but they aren't the ones spending the ridiculous amounts.

The days of the $5 million horses are over. Id bet you couldnt find a handfull of horses in BB or NZ barn that went thru he ring under $300k-$500k.

And winning a N2X with a $500k horse is not exactly a success story.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by VOL JACK

The days of the $5 million horses are over. Id bet you couldnt find a handfull of horses in BB or NZ barn that went thru he ring under $300k-$500k.

And winning a N2X with a $500k horse is not exactly a success story.

War Pass......$180K

Cool Coal Man.....$200K

Da' Tara........$175K

Coal Play.......$280K

Anak Nakal.......homebred

[ELA]

Originally Posted by VOL JACK

The days of the $5 million horses are over. Id bet you couldnt find a handfull of horses in BB or NZ barn that went thru he ring under $300k-$500k.

And winning a N2X with a $500k horse is not exactly a success story.

Actually, that is very untrue about Zito. I can't speak to Baffert.

Eric

[ELA]

As trainers, like them or don't, that's a different issue. As far as buying power, I can't speak to the Baffert aspect specifically, but by his own admittance he lost a lot of buying power between Lewis, Sanan and Zayat (to whatever extent you would consider that). Lukas hasn't had carte blanche for quite some time. Does he still have power to buy a big ticket horse? Two? Sure. But that is far from carte blanche, say for example, like Pletcher had the last X number of years. At this point, I think Lukas may get more "homebred" babies than purchases, and in that world -- you play the cards your dealt.

Zito is another story. For many years his buying power was mostly in the $300k and below range. He was also getting "homebreds" -- like the Whintey horses. There would always be the odd expensive buyback from LaPenta, or an odd expensive purchase from Live Oak, but they were very few and far between. His purchasing power in recent years has increased, and LaPenta is playing the game in a bigger way, and he has bought back more horses (and more expensive ones); but for years Zito produced without having anywhere near carte blanche.

Don't get me wrong -- there's no doubt these guys have strong buying power. Being able to buy just one million dollar baby is more than 99% of the trainers in the game, so they start out with big dollars.

I think Pletcher had a run where he had carte blanche.

Eric