Benny the Bull retired after injury

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

Normally I'd agree, but really, what's there to gain by bringing him back next year? He'll be six, so he might start slowing down, his value right now is likely as high as it's going to get, he's already got this year's Eclipse sewn up, and he's won just about every important sprint race except the Forego and BC Sprint, and those are both over a year away.

I also agree that these morons are dreaming if they think a son of Lucky Lionel is going to be some hot commodity at stud (same goes for Kip Deville), but I don't see the sense in bringing him back at six either.

He has it wrapped up? If a horse wins the Forgeo and Breeders Cup wont they have just as good if not better credentials then BtB? And thats not even counting the De Francis. The Dubai race is nice but it shouldnt count and the Sunshine Millions is a restricted race. He may be the leader now but he is far from a lock.

[ateamstupid]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

He has it wrapped up? If a horse wins the Forgeo and Breeders Cup wont they have just as good if not better credentials then BtB? And thats not even counting the De Francis. The Dubai race is nice but it shouldnt count and the Sunshine Millions is a restricted race. He may be the leader now but he is far from a lock.

What horse in this sprint division is winning all three of those races? Hell, I couldn't even tell you who's pointing to the Forego, much less who's good enough to win it.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

What horse in this sprint division is winning all three of those races? Hell, I couldn't even tell you who's pointing to the Forego, much less who's good enough to win it.

Horses who win the Breeders Cup are almost always named eclipse champion. Because the fields are so weak a horse with a good 8 week run can win the thing. Ever heard of Reraise?

[ateamstupid]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Horses who win the Breeders Cup are almost always named eclipse champion. Because the fields are so weak a horse with a good 8 week run can win the thing. Ever heard of Reraise?

Fine, there's a Reraise lurking out there somewhere in this horrendous division. Was there a horse in '98 that won the equivalent of the Golden Shaheen, Sunshine Millions, True North and Smile Sprint?

I think there's very little chance anyone else wins the Eclipse, but even if it happens, that wasn't my main point. My point was that I can see why IEAH wouldn't feel the need to bring this horse back at six.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

Fine, there's a Reraise lurking out there somewhere in this horrendous division. I think there's very little chance anyone else wins the Eclipse, but even if it happens, that wasn't my main point. My point was that I can see why IEAH wouldn't feel the need to bring this horse back at six.

Do you really think that his age is a big factor in the decision? Maybe I am being cynical but there is no reason to believe that the chip wasnt going to be a major problem in the future and if he was 4 i'm sure the same decision would have been made. The truth is he will be soon forgotten.

[ateamstupid]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Do you really think that his age is a big factor in the decision? Maybe I am being cynical but there is no reason to believe that the chip wasnt going to be a major problem in the future and if he was 4 i'm sure the same decision would have been made. The truth is he will be soon forgotten.

No, I think the most important factor is that his value, as low as you or I think that is, won't get any higher with another year in training and can only drop.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

No, I think the most important factor is that his value, as low as you or I think that is, won't get any higher with another year in training and can only drop.

It wont matter because he is already coming into a really tough market for stallions. I really dont think he is worth much more as a stud as he could win on the track.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

Was there a horse in '98 that won the equivalent of the Golden Shaheen, Sunshine Millions, True North and Smile Sprint?

Thor's Echo was defeated in both the Sunshine Millions Sprint and Ancient Title by Bordenero the year he won the title. He was also defeated three times by Proud Tower Too - including a loss to him in the Golden Shaheen.

Going into the '06 BC Sprint - Thor's Echo had lost 8 straight races, and hadn't won since taking a Cal Bred race at Del Mar the year before.

Henny Hughes had a Jersey Shore, King's Bishop, and Vosburgh triple going into the BC Sprint.

A horse like Street Boss has two Grade 1s already this year - and an ancient title and BC Sprint sweep wouldn't be shocking since he seems to like synthetic.

Benny the Bull doesn't have a single '08 Grade 1 win in the US.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Thor's Echo is a better example than Reraise. He hadn't won a race in a year and a half - and he only entered the Ancient Title a few weeks before the BC Sprint because an allowance race didn't fill.

TE was 2nd to Bordonaro and parlayed the Sprint and DeFrancis Dash to an Eclipse.

Reraise was just awesome all year long in '98. Winning all four of his six furlong races in dominant wire-to-wire fashion after displaying razor sharp speed. His only loss a 2nd at Del Mar to Young At Heart going 7 furlongs where he went way too fast early and came apart in the final furlong. The only race in his 8 race career in which he didn't dominate. He was close to untouchable at three quarters.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

Thor's Echo is a better example than Reraise. He hadn't won a race in a year and a half - and he only entered the Ancient Title a few weeks before the BC Sprint because an allowance race didn't fill.

TE was 2nd to Bordonaro and parlayed the Sprint and DeFrancis Dash.

Reraise was just awesome all year long in '98. Winning all four of his six furlong races in dominant wire-to-wire fashion after displaying razor sharp speed. His only loss a 2nd at Del Mar to Young At Heart going 7 furlongs where he went way too fast early and came apart in the final furlong. The only race in his 8 race career in which he didn't dominate. He was close to untouchable at three quarters.

I think he beat older horses twice that year, the AT and BC. Werent they the only grade 1's he had that year?

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

I think he beat older horses twice that year, the AT and BC. Werent they the only grade 1's he had that year?

The BC Sprint was the only Grade 1 he ever ran in.

He won the Gr 2 Kentucky Cup Sprint by 12 and he wired the sprint field with Grand Slam and Kona Gold in behind him. He won a straight 3yo stake at HP earlier in the year by 6 over Souvenier Copy and Full Moon Madness.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

The BC Sprint was the only Grade 1 he ever ran in.

He won the Gr 2 Kentucky Cup Sprint by 12 and he wired the sprint field with Grand Slam and Kona Gold in behind him. He won a straight 3yo stake at HP earlier in the year by 6 over Souvenier Copy and Full Moon Madness.

Kona Gold was a lightly raced 4yo at the time who almost didn't make the Sprint. He had been sensational at Del Mar, romping in 3 straight allowance races (only Officer won easier at Del Mar in the last decade) despite breaking poorly in at least two of them. He was well backed in the Ancient Title, but didn't fire, finishing a modest 5th. That left him behind the 8-ball as far as BC points go, and Headley had to plead his case to whoever makes additions based on performance. Kona Gold got in as a member of the mutual field, which killed his price quite a bit, but he didn't get a particularly good trip anyways, lagging further back then usual, IIRC, before making an inside move on the far turn and staying on for 3rd.

[stonegossard]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

He has it wrapped up? If a horse wins the Forgeo and Breeders Cup wont they have just as good if not better credentials then BtB? And thats not even counting the De Francis. The Dubai race is nice but it shouldnt count and the Sunshine Millions is a restricted race. He may be the leader now but he is far from a lock.

Didnt they get rid of the De Francis this year. I could have sworn I read that LRL got rid of most of their major stakes races this fall.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by stonegossard

Didnt they get rid of the De Francis this year. I could have sworn I read that LRL got rid of most of their major stakes races this fall.

You are correct!!!

[stonegossard]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

You are correct!!!

Yeah....happens once every few years.......me being correct that is.

[stonegossard]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

Where have you been man ? Engine One has been threatening me with pm's while typing from the computer in his parents basement.

[philcski]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

He has it wrapped up? If a horse wins the Forgeo and Breeders Cup wont they have just as good if not better credentials then BtB? And thats not even counting the De Francis. The Dubai race is nice but it shouldnt count and the Sunshine Millions is a restricted race. He may be the leader now but he is far from a lock.

I'm with you- I don't think he has it at ALL wrapped up. I think Street Boss should get consideration, especially if he wins the Ancient Title and/or the BC.

I understand the retirement, because they THINK they can make more money at stud and perhaps he wouldn't come back from it 100%, but I think they're in for a big surprise on how many people want to breed to him at their asking price (I'll guess $25k).

Just to be clear, I actually like Benny a lot, and would have loved to have seen him this weekend.

[cakes44]

Originally Posted by philcski

I'm with you- I don't think he has it at ALL wrapped up. I think Street Boss should get consideration, especially if he wins the Ancient Title and/or the BC.

I understand the retirement, because they THINK they can make more money at stud and perhaps he wouldn't come back from it 100%, but I think they're in for a big surprise on how many people want to breed to him at their asking price (I'll guess $25k).

Just to be clear, I actually like Benny a lot, and would have loved to have seen him this weekend.

If they ask for more than $12,500 for him, they really need to be examined. I'll guess $10,000 is the starting price, and that is also too high.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by cakes44

If they ask for more than $12,500 for him, they really need to be examined. I'll guess $10,000 is the starting price, and that is also too high.

he should be $7500 but you have to take into consideration that no one will want to pay full price for him so they have to bump the price to get what they really need to get for him. They should try him in a regional market like PA

[philcski]

Originally Posted by cakes44

If they ask for more than $12,500 for him, they really need to be examined. I'll guess $10,000 is the starting price, and that is also too high.

I think 10k is the "right" price, but you have to remember who you're dealing with. These guys are surely going to overestimate his value.