Close but Not Quite

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Depends on who is having the conversation. On the top of his game there is no horse in the last 25 years that either couldnt beat on a regular basis at 1 1/4. Despite the attitude that prevails now, close losses to fellow great horses does not show weakness. The problem now is that horses get nice clean records but they never beat ( or lose to) anyone truly great because those horses simply dont exist any longer.

None of that do I disagree with. But I do think that as far as public perception goes, if you asked everyone on this board that's been around 20+ years to name the top 25 horses of that period, Ferdinand's name won't come up that often.

Speaking of losses to other top horses, in another place, I'm having a debate on the merits of one Medaglia d'Oro and his abilities at 10f. It's my position that the knock people have on him saying he couldn't do it couldn't be further from the truth. Losing to Candy Ride and that 2003 BC Classic effort.....those were absolutely winning efforts but just so happened to come against better horses or horses that got better circumstances. They didn't show weakness on his part simply because he lost.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

None of that do I disagree with. But I do think that as far as public perception goes, if you asked everyone on this board that's been around 20+ years to name the top 25 horses of that period, Ferdinand's name won't come up that often.

Speaking of losses to other top horses, in another place, I'm having a debate on the merits of one Medaglia d'Oro and his abilities at 10f. It's my position that the knock people have on him saying he couldn't do it couldn't be further from the truth. Losing to Candy Ride and that 2003 BC Classic effort.....those were absolutely winning efforts but just so happened to come against better horses or horses that got better circumstances. They didn't show weakness on his part simply because he lost.

You could make that case however he was not nearly on the level of Alysheba or Ferdinand nor were the horses he lost to. I think that sometimes in the cases of horses like Alysheba and Ferninand people who either arent old enough or didnt follow close enough let these horses lack of success as stallions taint their records somehow. I was having a discussion with a guy who was comparing Curlin to some great horses and I said that I wasnt sure that he would beat Skip Away more times than he wouldnt and he made the comment about Skip Away being a bad sire, like that has anything to do with a horse's racing standing.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

You could make that case however he was not nearly on the level of Alysheba or Ferdinand nor were the horses he lost to. I think that sometimes in the cases of horses like Alysheba and Ferninand people who either arent old enough or didnt follow close enough let these horses lack of success as stallions taint their records somehow. I was having a discussion with a guy who was comparing Curlin to some great horses and I said that I wasnt sure that he would beat Skip Away more times than he wouldnt and he made the comment about Skip Away being a bad sire, like that has anything to do with a horse's racing standing.

I don't put him in the class of Alysheba or Ferdinand or any of the top 25 runners of the past 20 years. Not at all. I do think that Candy Ride is in that class though.

Curlin couldn't hold Skip Away's jock. Big Brown couldn't hold Medaglia's. The game today has changed so much. It's sad what's considered great. People are calling Zenyatta great too. It's gotten out of hand.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

I don't put him in the class of Alysheba or Ferdinand or any of the top 25 runners of the past 20 years. Not at all. I do think that Candy Ride is in that class though.

Curlin couldn't hold Skip Away's jock. Big Brown couldn't hold Medaglia's. The game today has changed so much. It's sad what's considered great. People are calling Zenyatta great too. It's gotten out of hand.

Candy Ride simply didnt do enough for me to put him in that league. He may have but he didnt.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Candy Ride simply didnt do enough for me to put him in that league. He may have but he didnt.

i'm in the same boat with you on candy ride.
as for medaglia d'oro-he lost too often to too many horses imo to be considered a really good horse. really good horses win those races. it's not as tho horses like volponi and sarava really resonate with the racing public.

[AeWingnut]

Originally Posted by Danzig

i'm in the same boat with you on candy ride.
as for medaglia d'oro-he lost too often to too many horses imo to be considered a really good horse. really good horses win those races. it's not as tho horses like volponi and sarava really resonate with the racing public.

I had both of those

Volponi is the reason those guys got caught in the pick 6 scam. A favorite wins and they may not have drawn attention to themselves. if Medaglia d'oro was great then Lemon Drop Kid is

on topic:

Cigar won 16 races in a row including the BC classic and the inaugural Dubai World Cup and there are those that claim he wasn't great. Of all the horses that beat him I think Skip Away is the only one that is. But because he hasn't caught himself in the breeding shed he falls short of great.

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by AeWingnut

I had both of those

Volponi is the reason those guys got caught in the pick 6 scam. A favorite wins and they may not have drawn attention to themselves. if Medaglia d'oro was great then Lemon Drop Kid is

on topic:

Cigar won 16 races in a row including the BC classic and the inaugural Dubai World Cup and there are those that claim he wasn't great. Of all the horses that beat him I think Skip Away is the only one that is. But because he hasn't caught himself in the breeding shed he falls short of great.

In what alternate universe is Cigar NOT great?

He certainly was a great racehorse.