House Subcommittee Hearings

[justindew]

Originally Posted by Kasept

Are you even remotely aware of the work that is being done by a host of people throughout the industry on EVERY SINGLE TOPIC that was brought up today?

It's irresponsible to be unaware of what is actually being attempted and accomplished.

Maybe years of being in the industry and seeing firsthand how f'ing stupid the decision makers are, by and large, has dampened the panel members' faith in the "host of people" you mention.

The NTRA has been around for 10 years with the goal of essentially making the sport more popular. What have they come up with? Go Baby Go!, and Win and You're In.

Brilliant.

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by justindew

Maybe years of being in the industry and seeing firsthand how f'ing stupid the decision makers are, by and large, has dampened the panel members' faith in the "host of people" you mention.

The NTRA has been around for 10 years with the goal of essentially making the sport more popular. What have they come up with? Go Baby Go!, and Win and You're In.

Brilliant.

As bad a job as they've done, they and the American Horse Council did keep racing out of the clean sweep of gambling on the internet. If NOTHING else, that counts for a great deal. It's easier to fight from here on the defensive than to try to re-establish the positioning.

[justindew]

Originally Posted by Kasept

As bad a job as they've done, they and the American Horse Council did keep racing out of the clean sweep of gambling on the internet. If NOTHING else, that counts for a great deal. It's easier to fight from here on the defensive than to try to re-establish the positioning.

In ten years of existence, the NTRA's only accomplishment is temporarily preventing the total elimination of the sport. Fan-friggen-tastic.

My point is that I can hardly fault someone who is tired of trusting other industry insiders to fix the problems the industry is facing.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by justindew

In ten years of existence, the NTRA's only accomplishment is temporarily preventing the total elimination of the sport. Fan-friggen-tastic.

My point is that I can hardly fault someone who is tired of trusting other industry insiders to fix the problems the industry is facing.

Who is tired on that panel? jess jackson? he has been in the game 5 years and has managed to sue half the people in it. Arthur hancock? He took the same position 20 years ago. I believe he is living in the past (which wasnt nearly as nice as he remembers) but his stance is older than the NTRA by 10 years. Jack Van Berg? He is a bitter old trainer that cant pay his bills. I may just as bitter as he is but the game moved on without him and he is mad. Randy Moss? I loved his line about being a trainer. When exactly was that? What is he tired of? The fact that the game which sucks so bad has allowed him to be on national tv? Or that the DRF has adapted his pace figures? He thrives yet calls for others to suffer (including bettors)because he is Mr. politically correct. Funny that the people with their agenda's on display pubically were allowed yet many others who asked to be on the panel were denied.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by justindew

Maybe years of being in the industry and seeing firsthand how f'ing stupid the decision makers are, by and large, has dampened the panel members' faith in the "host of people" you mention.

The NTRA has been around for 10 years with the goal of essentially making the sport more popular. What have they come up with? Go Baby Go!, and Win and You're In.

Brilliant.

The NTRA was designed as a marketing tool. Why anyone thought that it would or could serve as a league office is beyond me.

[justindew]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

The NTRA was designed as a marketing tool. Why anyone thought that it would or could serve as a league office is beyond me.

I'm not implying that it was supposed to serve as a league office. My point is that it was set up by industry insiders to make the sport more poplular, and instead the sport has become less popular. This is but one example of why people like those on today's congressional panel may not be all that fired up to let the same industry insiders work towards solutions to racing's problems.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by Kasept

Are you even remotely aware of the work that is being done by a host of people throughout the industry on EVERY SINGLE TOPIC that was brought up today? Work that is being diminished and insulted by douchebags and buffoons like Randy Moss who don't know what they're talking about but are accepted as 'authoritative' because of some perceived knowledge gleened from 17 minutes of airtime on ESPN once a month?

Are you kidding me? This was a mockery today. No one who has been working tirelessly to change things in the game, and that have been making progress, were representated.. Their efforts were obfuscated by lies, misrepresentations and innuendo. I'm surprised that someone that makes their living in the game would perpetuate the crap that we just listened to for 4 hours... It's irresponsible to be unaware of what is actually being attempted and accomplished.

Sorry to be harsh about it but accepting the bullsh+t from the likes of Jess Jackson is outrageous.

I have to strongly disagree with you. I think these hearings were a huge positive. This is the first time that I have ever been optimistic that this sport is finally going to be cleaned up. I thought that each and every one of the panel members were eloquent in their testimonies.

You refer to what we heard at the hearings as "crap". You call some of the testimony "lies and misrepresentations". Tell me specifically some of the things that were said that were lies and/or misrepresentations.

I didn't hear any major point that was not true. I pretty much agreed with everything that I heard. I was thrilled that all the things that I've been saying for a long time were finally being talked about.

You say that "It is irresponsible to be unaware of what is actually being attempted and accomplished." You better explain it to me. What is being attempted and accomplished? I didn't realize there was some great conspiracy here. I must be in on the conspiracy too since I not only agreed with pretty much everything that was said at those hearings, but I've been saying many of those same things for a long time.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

I have to strongly disagree with you. I think these hearings were a huge positive. This is the first time that I have ever been optimistic that this sport is finally going to be cleaned up. I thought that each and every one of the panel members were eloquent in their testimonies.

You refer to what we heard at the hearings as "crap". You call some of the testimony "lies and misrepresentations". Tell me specifically some of the things that were said that were lies and/or misrepresentations.

I didn't hear any major point that was not true. I pretty much agreed with everything that I heard. I was thrilled that all the things that I've been saying for a long time were finally being talked about.

You say that "It is irresponsible to be unaware of what is actually being attempted and accomplished." You better explain it to me. What is being attempted and accomplished? I didn't realize there was some great conspiracy here. I must be in on the conspiracy too since I not only agreed with pretty much everything that was said at those hearings, but I've been saying many of those same things for a long time.

Rupert

You have to understand that this "hearing" was like a fixed race. The politicians had already predetermined what they want to do, which is CONTROL racings revenue streams, hence the one sided witness list. Can you inagine if the outcry when they held the baseball hearings if they didnt invite the players association reps? Hell no player would have shown up. Arthur Hancock has been saying that the sky is falling since 1990 yet it hasnt. Jack Van Berg was only invited because of a piece in the NY Post where he sounded like a bitter old guy. Jackson employes one of the most penalized trainers in the business yet was never asked about that relationship. Randy Moss has had an on air agenda since the begining of the year.It was a set up. Some of what they said may be true (in theory, since i heard mostly personal opinions that were never backed up with any facts or examples).

But the whole process was a sham. Why wasnt the RMTC represented? Why wasn't the HBPA repesented? Why werent the racetracks represented? Can you agree that this was far from a representative group? just because you agree that the is a problem with drugs doesnt mean you have to think that this was a positive.

Do you not understand that whenever racing has an issue this testimony will be referenced by both the politicians and mainstream media? Do you not understand that when politicians talk of people getting wealthy and huge amounts of revenue and billion dollar industry these are signs that they intend on taking some of that money even though there really isnt any money out there to take? Do you realize that the sport moving forward will look exactly the same on the track as it does now?

Think I'm wrong about that? Let me give you a brief reminder of what has happened in the last 10 years. When I got my trainers license in 1999 there was wide spread milkshaking, wide spread EPO use, zero steroid regulation, wide spread use of shockwave machines right up to the time horses went to the paddock, in KY we were allowed to give anti inflamatories 4 hours before post, no detention barns in NY, no surveliience barns in CA, virtually no investigators anywhere, cocaine positives, steroids in sales horses, etc. As of Jan 1, 2009 we will have dealt with all of these issues yet people like you continue to say that everything is out of control and nothing has been done. So when some of us scratch our heads when you guys complain that nothing as been done maybe you can understand where we are coming from.

Has enough been done? of course not but in my lifetime more has been done in the past 4 years than the first 36. What exactly are the feds going to do? Ban steroids? that has already been accomplished for the most part. I never heard one of the illustrious panelists talk about the so called designer drugs that the guys in CA that you despise so much are using. They arent gaining an advantage using drugs that everybody has access to.

If you love the sport in any capacity I fail to see how this will wind up a positive in the end. Higher takeout, less money for owners, and the same guys winning all the races. The breeding aspect cant be legislated and as such will not change unless guys start buying slow horses and ignoring the fast ones. Horses will still breakdown, unfortunately in big races too. Not much will change but it will cost us a lot. This is a hugely complex issue which is not exactly a government specialty.

[DogsUp]

The complexity of racing is almost as bad as the current tax laws. I don't know much, but I know that something needs to be done.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by DogsUp

The complexity of racing is almost as bad as the current tax laws. I don't know much, but I know that something needs to be done.

You should run for Congress

[Honu]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Rupert

You have to understand that this "hearing" was like a fixed race. The politicians had already predetermined what they want to do, which is CONTROL racings revenue streams, hence the one sided witness list. Can you inagine if the outcry when they held the baseball hearings if they didnt invite the players association reps? Hell no player would have shown up. Arthur Hancock has been saying that the sky is falling since 1990 yet it hasnt. Jack Van Berg was only invited because of a piece in the NY Post where he sounded like a bitter old guy. Jackson employes one of the most penalized trainers in the business yet was never asked about that relationship. Randy Moss has had an on air agenda since the begining of the year.It was a set up. Some of what they said may be true (in theory, since i heard mostly personal opinions that were never backed up with any facts or examples).

But the whole process was a sham. Why wasnt the RMTC represented? Why wasn't the HBPA repesented? Why werent the racetracks represented? Can you agree that this was far from a representative group? just because you agree that the is a problem with drugs doesnt mean you have to think that this was a positive.

Do you not understand that whenever racing has an issue this testimony will be referenced by both the politicians and mainstream media? Do you not understand that when politicians talk of people getting wealthy and huge amounts of revenue and billion dollar industry these are signs that they intend on taking some of that money even though there really isnt any money out there to take? Do you realize that the sport moving forward will look exactly the same on the track as it does now?

Think I'm wrong about that? Let me give you a brief reminder of what has happened in the last 10 years. When I got my trainers license in 1999 there was wide spread milkshaking, wide spread EPO use, zero steroid regulation, wide spread use of shockwave machines right up to the time horses went to the paddock, in KY we were allowed to give anti inflamatories 4 hours before post, no detention barns in NY, no surveliience barns in CA, virtually no investigators anywhere, cocaine positives, steroids in sales horses, etc. As of Jan 1, 2009 we will have dealt with all of these issues yet people like you continue to say that everything is out of control and nothing has been done. So when some of us scratch our heads when you guys complain that nothing as been done maybe you can understand where we are coming from.

Has enough been done? of course not but in my lifetime more has been done in the past 4 years than the first 36. What exactly are the feds going to do? Ban steroids? that has already been accomplished for the most part. I never heard one of the illustrious panelists talk about the so called designer drugs that the guys in CA that you despise so much are using. They arent gaining an advantage using drugs that everybody has access to.

If you love the sport in any capacity I fail to see how this will wind up a positive in the end. Higher takeout, less money for owners, and the same guys winning all the races. The breeding aspect cant be legislated and as such will not change unless guys start buying slow horses and ignoring the fast ones. Horses will still breakdown, unfortunately in big races too. Not much will change but it will cost us a lot. This is a hugely complex issue which is not exactly a government specialty.

Finally someone that can see that involving the federal government in all this is not in the best intrests of racing.

[Riot]

Now that the people with the agenda have had their sham prerequisite federal "hearing", the real danger begins as the first step to introducing legislation has just occured.

The feds have just established that the TB community cannot save itself, we are heartless and cruel to our horses, and it is up to them - and interested animal rights groups - to protect racehorses from our abuse.

Congressman Whitfield, R-KY, whose wife Connie is a VP in the Humane Society of the United States (goal: eliminate horse racing because it's an evil practice that abuses horses - HSUS also contributed campaign funds to Whitfields election) will now introduce an amendment to a current law into Congress within the next 2 months.

This amendment will have the feds establish a national racing committee to oversee horse racing. The Feds will control it for the first 2 years.

The people on this committee will be federal government folks like Whitfield, and hand-picked appointed horse racing people.

This committee will be formed and funded by an amendment to the Interstate Wagering Act, where a 1.5 - 2 % federal tax on gross takeout nationwide will be placed into law (out of the 15 billion "gambling handle" the feds think is just hangin' around somewhere) and go into federal coffers.

The money will be used to place a federally-appointed inspector at each sale and race track, to "protect the horses" and oversee what's going on.

The money will be used to establish a national health insurance pool for jockeys.

The act will be amended to include severe nationwide federal restrictions on use of drugs within the horse breeding or racing industries (no funding for testing, however), and of course have the obligatory no use of whips - ever - provision.

The horse racing world will panic and fight this (as yes, financially it means the end of the sport), and meanwhile, while the horse racing world is incensed over the takeout and control issue, the HSUS will quietly tack on an amendment in the last committee before the vote (as they secretly do very well), "for the safety and welfare of the horse", forbidding TB and STB horses from racing and training before they are 3 years of age.


The only people that saw the hearings yesterday as the farce they were is probably only 1/3 of the "horse racing world" at best - everyone else - and the public - thinks they were accurate, insightful and true.

So if anyone thinks this is going fade away, I fear you are much mistaken.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Honu

Finally someone that can see that involving the federal government in all this is not in the best intrests of racing.

involving the feds in ANYTHING is not in the best interest!!

[Travis Stone]

Government intervention would be a terrible thing. But if these hearings do serve as a catalysts towards steps towards reform, how can they be bad? If anything, hopefully they instill some drive or a greater sense of urgency than what turf writers do almost daily now.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Rupert

You have to understand that this "hearing" was like a fixed race. The politicians had already predetermined what they want to do, which is CONTROL racings revenue streams, hence the one sided witness list. Can you inagine if the outcry when they held the baseball hearings if they didnt invite the players association reps? Hell no player would have shown up. Arthur Hancock has been saying that the sky is falling since 1990 yet it hasnt. Jack Van Berg was only invited because of a piece in the NY Post where he sounded like a bitter old guy. Jackson employes one of the most penalized trainers in the business yet was never asked about that relationship. Randy Moss has had an on air agenda since the begining of the year.It was a set up. Some of what they said may be true (in theory, since i heard mostly personal opinions that were never backed up with any facts or examples).

But the whole process was a sham. Why wasnt the RMTC represented? Why wasn't the HBPA repesented? Why werent the racetracks represented? Can you agree that this was far from a representative group? just because you agree that the is a problem with drugs doesnt mean you have to think that this was a positive.

Do you not understand that whenever racing has an issue this testimony will be referenced by both the politicians and mainstream media? Do you not understand that when politicians talk of people getting wealthy and huge amounts of revenue and billion dollar industry these are signs that they intend on taking some of that money even though there really isnt any money out there to take? Do you realize that the sport moving forward will look exactly the same on the track as it does now?

Think I'm wrong about that? Let me give you a brief reminder of what has happened in the last 10 years. When I got my trainers license in 1999 there was wide spread milkshaking, wide spread EPO use, zero steroid regulation, wide spread use of shockwave machines right up to the time horses went to the paddock, in KY we were allowed to give anti inflamatories 4 hours before post, no detention barns in NY, no surveliience barns in CA, virtually no investigators anywhere, cocaine positives, steroids in sales horses, etc. As of Jan 1, 2009 we will have dealt with all of these issues yet people like you continue to say that everything is out of control and nothing has been done. So when some of us scratch our heads when you guys complain that nothing as been done maybe you can understand where we are coming from.

Has enough been done? of course not but in my lifetime more has been done in the past 4 years than the first 36. What exactly are the feds going to do? Ban steroids? that has already been accomplished for the most part. I never heard one of the illustrious panelists talk about the so called designer drugs that the guys in CA that you despise so much are using. They arent gaining an advantage using drugs that everybody has access to.

If you love the sport in any capacity I fail to see how this will wind up a positive in the end. Higher takeout, less money for owners, and the same guys winning all the races. The breeding aspect cant be legislated and as such will not change unless guys start buying slow horses and ignoring the fast ones. Horses will still breakdown, unfortunately in big races too. Not much will change but it will cost us a lot. This is a hugely complex issue which is not exactly a government specialty.

I understand what you are saying. No system is perfect. Any time there are congressional hearings on any subject, you could argue that the panelists are one-sided. When they have a hearing about child abuse, they don't get abusers on the panel to make sure that both sides are heard. That's not the way congressional hearings work.

I don't trust the feds any more than you do. However, I don't have any confidence in the governing bodies of racing to do what needs to be done.

At this point, the feds may not necessarily be needed. Those hearings may have been enough of an impetus to get the governing bodies in racing to finally get their act together.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by parsixfarms

People can debate whether the hearing is good or bad for racing. However, on the politics of it, does anyone give any of this stuff a realistic chance of actually becoming law so long as Mitch McConnell (R-KY) is the minority leader in the Senate?

Yes. Absolutely.

First, general public opinion is definitely on the side of "save those poor innocent horses from the evil owners and trainers who drug them and run them to death" (just read the public blog comments - from horse people - after Eight Belles).

Secondly, the opinion of what appears to be an alarming portion of "interested horse racing fans" and members of the industry appears to support government intervention and control.

Third, but most importantly: the Humane Society of the United States has jumped on this. Indeed, they are front and center and leading the charge through Connie Whitfield. The HSUS is a very efficient and well-funded lobbying machine with excellent timing, and an increasing number of sympathetic lawmakers on board.

Proof - look at the head start the AR groups got on horse racing with Eight Belles - they controlled the media and public opinion. And still do.

The HSUS knows the historical timing is right to step into horse racing and impose their opinions and desires upon this tiny niche sport.

HSUS has unfortunately begun to be successful recently having legislation passed restricting ownership rights of pet dogs and cats. Legislation I could never imagine could be passed 5 or 10 years ago.

Do I think HSUS can get a law forbidding racing and training of 2-year-old TB horses passed within the next two or three years? Absolutely. The general public is entirely on their side.

Truth or reality does not matter in this fight. Only emotion and perception. This issue is cast as black and white, with only two views: either you want to save and protect abused, drugged horses with us, or you are evil.

We are no longer an agricultural society. We no longer have a broad societal experience or exposure to real animals - let alone horses or any horse sports. Many people - I believe the majority - see no reason for anybody to be allowed to "use" horses for "our own purposes".

Who would ever have believed that foxhunting and greyhound coursing would be outlawed in England, where both sports are far more ingrained into hundreds of years of societal history than in any other country on earth? And horseracing is targeted over in Europe, now, too.

[Rileyoriley]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Rupert

You have to understand that this "hearing" was like a fixed race. The politicians had already predetermined what they want to do, which is CONTROL racings revenue streams, hence the one sided witness list. Can you inagine if the outcry when they held the baseball hearings if they didnt invite the players association reps? Hell no player would have shown up. Arthur Hancock has been saying that the sky is falling since 1990 yet it hasnt. Jack Van Berg was only invited because of a piece in the NY Post where he sounded like a bitter old guy. Jackson employes one of the most penalized trainers in the business yet was never asked about that relationship. Randy Moss has had an on air agenda since the begining of the year.It was a set up. Some of what they said may be true (in theory, since i heard mostly personal opinions that were never backed up with any facts or examples).

But the whole process was a sham. Why wasnt the RMTC represented? Why wasn't the HBPA repesented? Why werent the racetracks represented? Can you agree that this was far from a representative group? just because you agree that the is a problem with drugs doesnt mean you have to think that this was a positive.

Do you not understand that whenever racing has an issue this testimony will be referenced by both the politicians and mainstream media? Do you not understand that when politicians talk of people getting wealthy and huge amounts of revenue and billion dollar industry these are signs that they intend on taking some of that money even though there really isnt any money out there to take? Do you realize that the sport moving forward will look exactly the same on the track as it does now?

Think I'm wrong about that? Let me give you a brief reminder of what has happened in the last 10 years. When I got my trainers license in 1999 there was wide spread milkshaking, wide spread EPO use, zero steroid regulation, wide spread use of shockwave machines right up to the time horses went to the paddock, in KY we were allowed to give anti inflamatories 4 hours before post, no detention barns in NY, no surveliience barns in CA, virtually no investigators anywhere, cocaine positives, steroids in sales horses, etc. As of Jan 1, 2009 we will have dealt with all of these issues yet people like you continue to say that everything is out of control and nothing has been done. So when some of us scratch our heads when you guys complain that nothing as been done maybe you can understand where we are coming from.

Has enough been done? of course not but in my lifetime more has been done in the past 4 years than the first 36. What exactly are the feds going to do? Ban steroids? that has already been accomplished for the most part. I never heard one of the illustrious panelists talk about the so called designer drugs that the guys in CA that you despise so much are using. They arent gaining an advantage using drugs that everybody has access to.

If you love the sport in any capacity I fail to see how this will wind up a positive in the end. Higher takeout, less money for owners, and the same guys winning all the races. The breeding aspect cant be legislated and as such will not change unless guys start buying slow horses and ignoring the fast ones. Horses will still breakdown, unfortunately in big races too. Not much will change but it will cost us a lot. This is a hugely complex issue which is not exactly a government specialty.

No AAEP representation either.