Big Brown and Winstrol....questions

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by philcski

Note the connection to D Wayne- basically ALL of his champion fillies had problems/complications in breeding. I don't think it takes a rocket scientist to figure out why.

They did?

He trained three champion females in the 90's:

Flanders: Dam of 4 time Grade 1 winner and $1.8 million earner Surfside.

Serena's Song: Dam of 5 stake horses including Group 1 winner Sophisticat and Grade 2 winners Harlington and Grand Reward.

Golden Attraction: Dam of a stakes winner - and two other horses who are Graded Stakes placed.

His champs in the 80's:

Althea: Dam of 4 different group or Graded Stakes winners.

Family Style: Dam of stakes winner Polish Style

Lady's Secret: Lousy producer in terms of quality - however several of her offspring sold very well.

Landaluce: Never made it into the shed

Life's Magic: Dam of three different horses who earned blacktype

Open Mind: She had problems - only two foals - one of which was 4-2-1-0 and made 300K in Japan

Sacahuista: Dam of Group 1 winning millionaire Ekaraar as well as productive race horse and stallion Hussonet

Winning Colors: Dam of millionaire acution purchase Golden Colors who was 3-for-10 and made over 500K in Japan. Several of hers also sold well - including a $2.5 million Broad Brush dud.

Lukas also trained the excellent top class race mare Terlingua in the early 80's - she was the dam of Storm Cat.

[Danzig]

i'd really appreciate if people would NOT interject these facts to clutter up peoples' perfectly nice threads.

[VOL JACK]

Drugs is on the muscle!!!!!

Reminds me of my wife, I say one thing, she comes back with ten reasons why I am wrong.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

They did?

He trained three champion females in the 90's:

Flanders: Dam of 4 time Grade 1 winner and $1.8 million earner Surfside.

Serena's Song: Dam of 5 stake horses including Group 1 winner Sophisticat and Grade 2 winners Harlington and Grand Reward.

Golden Attraction: Dam of a stakes winner - and two other horses who are Graded Stakes placed.

His champs in the 80's:

Althea: Dam of 4 different group or Graded Stakes winners.

Family Style: Dam of stakes winner Polish Style

Lady's Secret: Lousy producer in terms of quality - however several of her offspring sold very well.

Landaluce: Never made it into the shed

Life's Magic: Dam of three different horses who earned blacktype

Open Mind: She had problems - only two foals - one of which was 4-2-1-0 and made 300K in Japan

Sacahuista: Dam of Group 1 winning millionaire Ekaraar as well as productive race horse and stallion Hussonet

Winning Colors: Dam of millionaire acution purchase Golden Colors who was 3-for-10 and made over 500K in Japan. Several of hers also sold well - including a $2.5 million Broad Brush dud.

Lukas also trained the excellent top class race mare Terlingua in the early 80's - she was the dam of Storm Cat.

So are you saying that all his fillies could walk right off the track and be bred a month or two later with no problem?

[letswastemoney]

just because something is legal doesnt make it right

[philcski]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

They did?

He trained three champion females in the 90's:

Flanders: Dam of 4 time Grade 1 winner and $1.8 million earner Surfside.

Serena's Song: Dam of 5 stake horses including Group 1 winner Sophisticat and Grade 2 winners Harlington and Grand Reward.

Golden Attraction: Dam of a stakes winner - and two other horses who are Graded Stakes placed.

His champs in the 80's:

Althea: Dam of 4 different group or Graded Stakes winners.

Family Style: Dam of stakes winner Polish Style

Lady's Secret: Lousy producer in terms of quality - however several of her offspring sold very well.

Landaluce: Never made it into the shed

Life's Magic: Dam of three different horses who earned blacktype

Open Mind: She had problems - only two foals - one of which was 4-2-1-0 and made 300K in Japan

Sacahuista: Dam of Group 1 winning millionaire Ekaraar as well as productive race horse and stallion Hussonet

Winning Colors: Dam of millionaire acution purchase Golden Colors who was 3-for-10 and made over 500K in Japan. Several of hers also sold well - including a $2.5 million Broad Brush dud.

Lukas also trained the excellent top class race mare Terlingua in the early 80's - she was the dam of Storm Cat.

Note I didn't say POOR producers, but rather difficulties in impregnation (this information coming from the stallion manager at Lanes End.)

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by philcski

Note I didn't say POOR producers, but rather difficulties in impregnation (this information coming from the stallion manager at Lanes End.)

I believe every single one of those champion female horses he trained had their first foal in the first season they were covered.

Did all of them catch on the very first cover? How would I know ... however, all of them did their job and produced a foal...and in some cases very good ones.

It's not like broodmares catch every cover.

[ELA]

Originally Posted by philcski

Note I didn't say POOR producers, but rather difficulties in impregnation (this information coming from the stallion manager at Lanes End.)

I guess one might wonder how many of those mares were actually went to Lane's End to be bred? DWL has always been an easy "target" as well. Who really knows the truth, although in this business, depending on how close to the real source and origin, there's often a lot more stories than truth.

I remember hearing nonsense and BS that every insurance company writing coverage would decline coverage if the horse was trained by DWL. I then had people say "yeah, I heard that too" and "yes that's true, my friend knows _______ and he told me" and all that.

As far as the winstrol issue -- the media, the propaganda claims about Dutrow "admitting" and all that. Like many of us know -- all horn no drivetrain. It's a legal drug and part of today's game. Move on. The aspect of effects, ramfications, what % are and aren't, etc. -- those are very valid and important discussions. Perhaps it's just as simple as ban it, then have complete and total random testing -- non-raceday testing, 365 days a year. On the other hand, either ban it or it's part of the game.

Eric

[ELA]

By the way, I am not going to open a Pandora's box here in this type of forum, however, this is not anywhere near as simple as owners holding trainers accountable by questioning trainers, and vets, and closely reviewing and scrutinizing vet bills. For people who have been in this business as long as I have, and now the business -- truly know the business -- you know that does not and cannot work. Sorry folks -- if you think that's the answer -- race your horses and bet only at Fantasy Land Downs.

I hear much talk about holding owners accountable -- and I am all for that -- within reason. What PA tried to do was not feasible and enforceable, hence, they modified their new rule(s) and amended their position. I for one was more than willing to fight PA on their initial stance, and would have had they not dialed it back. You can only hold someone accountable for what they can be accountable for and you cannot set an unenforceable or impossible standard.

With that in mind, while trainers and owners are to be held accountable, so should the vets.

Eric

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by ELA

I guess one might wonder how many of those mares were actually went to Lane's End to be bred? DWL has always been an easy "target" as well. Who really knows the truth, although in this business, depending on how close to the real source and origin, there's often a lot more stories than truth.

I remember hearing nonsense and BS that every insurance company writing coverage would decline coverage if the horse was trained by DWL. I then had people say "yeah, I heard that too" and "yes that's true, my friend knows _______ and he told me" and all that.

As far as the winstrol issue -- the media, the propaganda claims about Dutrow "admitting" and all that. Like many of us know -- all horn no drivetrain. It's a legal drug and part of today's game. Move on. The aspect of effects, ramfications, what % are and aren't, etc. -- those are very valid and important discussions. Perhaps it's just as simple as ban it, then have complete and total random testing -- non-raceday testing, 365 days a year. On the other hand, either ban it or it's part of the game.

Eric

How did you come to the conclusion that it is "nonsense and BS" that some insurance companies won't insure Lukas horses? It is not nonsense or BS. It is fact. I know of specific companies that won't insure his horses. Try calling some of the big companies such as Kirk.

[ELA]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

How did you come to the conclusion that it is "nonsense and BS" that some insurance companies won't insure Lukas horses? It is not nonsense or BS. It is fact. I know of specific companies that won't insure his horses. Try calling some of the big companies such as Kirk.

It's nonsense and BS. It is not a fact. You can know specific companies all you want. First, I said "every" -- you said "some" and as I am sure you would agree, monster difference there. Second, this has nothing to do with DWL. I can get insurance today on any horse in his barn, financial and health justification just like any other horse trained by any other trainer. I can find companies that won't write/issue coverage on horses trained by other trainers. Doesn't mean a thing. Third, Kirk, if we are talking about the same Kirk, is in the role of a broker, not an underwriting correspondent that will issue coverage and assume risk on their own paper.

Like Dutrow, and many other successful people in our industry, Lukas, will often be a target. Easy, hard, doesn't matter.

Eric

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by ELA

It's nonsense and BS. It is not a fact. You can know specific companies all you want. First, I said "every" -- you said "some" and as I am sure you would agree, monster difference there. Second, this has nothing to do with DWL. I can get insurance today on any horse in his barn, financial and health justification just like any other horse trained by any other trainer. I can find companies that won't write/issue coverage on horses trained by other trainers. Doesn't mean a thing. Third, Kirk, if we are talking about the same Kirk, is in the role of a broker, not an underwriting correspondent that will issue coverage and assume risk on their own paper.

Like Dutrow, and many other successful people in our industry, Lukas, will often be a target. Easy, hard, doesn't matter.

Eric

What do you mean that it has nothing to do with DWL? It has everything to do with DWL. The reason that some insurers won't insure his horses is because he has had an inordinate number of breakdowns in terms of percentage compared to other trainers. The insurance companies that won't insure his horses will tell you that.

For anyone out there that has any doubt about this, you can find out for yourself. Try calling a few insurance companies and tell them that you just bought a 2 year old at a 2 year olds in training sale. Tell them that you haven't decided on a trainer yet, but you wanted to know if the trainer you choose will have any bearing on whether or not they will insure your horse. Then tell them that that one of the guys you are considering is Lukas and see what they say. I will bet you that many of the insurers will tell you that they will not insure your horse if he is the trainer.

[ELA]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

What do you mean that it has nothing to do with DWL? It has everything to do with DWL. The reason that some insurers won't insure his horses is because he has had an inordinate number of breakdowns in terms of percentage compared to other trainers. The insurance companies that won't insure his horses will tell you that.

For anyone out there that has any doubt about this, you can find out for yourself. Try calling a few insurance companies and tell them that you just bought a 2 year old at a 2 year olds in training sale. Tell them that you haven't decided on a trainer yet, but you wanted to know if the trainer you choose will have any bearing on whether or not they will insure your horse. Then tell them that that one of the guys you are considering is Lukas and see what they say. I will bet you that many of the insurers will tell you that they will not insure your horse if he is the trainer.

What do I mean -- what I mean is that it has nothing to do with DWL. There are plenty of companies that will insure his horses -- period. The issue is that I said a claim was made that said "ALL" and you commented on it by saying "SOME" -- I didn't see you responde to that. Obviously, if companies will insure his horses than it has nothing to do with DWL.

I would also look to have a company decline coverage, put in writing that they are declining coverage because the horse is trained by DWL. We've all heard the so called "claims" that he has higher %'s of breakdowns -- yeah, more "claims". Proof would be nice. Also, what kind of BS insurance are we talking about here. Breakdowns? How about mortality.

Like I said, nonsense and BS. Let's all get together and call insurance companies -- not brokers -- and we can come back here and celebrate that DWL can't get insurance from ALL insurance companies.

Carry on.

Eric