Big Brown and Winstrol....questions

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by sumitas

The race horses are juiced up steroid freaks. At all ages it seems. From the sales to the track. Put a big * next to these horses in the steroid era.

So, in other words, most of the performers for the last 30 years or so?

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by Kasept

So, in other words, most of the performers for the last 30 years or so?

I don't think there were many guys using steroids in the 1980s. There were a few, but not many. I think it's been the last 15 years or so that the usage has gone up 10x. D Wayne was one of the only guys using steroids in the 1980s and it gave him a big edge, especially with his 2 year olds, who were as mature as 3 year olds due to the steroids.

Right now, I wouldn't even say that the majority of horses are on steroids. I get all of our vet bills and we use about 7 different trainers. Most of our trainers rarely use steroids.

Right now there are some trainers out there who just automatically put all of their horses on a regular steroid regimen. I couldn't tell you exactly what percentage of trainers do that, but my guess would be about 30%. I'm not a big fan of guys who do that. Steroids are not going to help every horse. It depends on the horse. Steroids can move some horses way up, but it can make other horses much worse.

[TheSpyder]

Thanks for the view from the inside RP. Nice to hear some facts for a change.

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

I don't think there were many guys using steroids in the 1980s. There were a few, but not many. I think it's been the last 15 years or so that the usage has gone up 10x. D Wayne was one of the only guys using steroids in the 1980s and it gave him a big edge, especially with his 2 year olds, who were as mature as 3 year olds due to the steroids.

Right now, I wouldn't even say that the majority of horses are on steroids. I get all of our vet bills and we use about 7 different trainers. Most of our trainers rarely use steroids.

Right now there are some trainers out there who just automatically put all of their horses on a regular steroid regimen. I couldn't tell you exactly what percentage of trainers do that, but my guess would be about 30%. I'm not a big fan of guys who do that. Steroids are not going to help every horse. It depends on the horse. Steroids can move some horses way up, but it can make other horses much worse.

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

Right now there are some trainers out there who just automatically put all of their horses on a regular steroid regimen. I couldn't tell you exactly what percentage of trainers do that, but my guess would be about 30%.

The number I hear is typically about twice that.. Areas of the country preparing to come off steroid programs will certainly be ahead of the curve in ending treatment with it.. It's days are numbered obviously, but I find it laughable that it's being used as the magic cure for 'drugs in racing'. The steroids aren't the problem...

[pgiaco]

In my time in the game I've had two horses, both fillies, treated with winstrol. Both were bad eaters and had trouble putting on weight after layoffs. While they were able to muscle up it certainly didn't make them any faster. Can't say I'd rush into using it routinely and I am in favor of just getting rid of them.

Also haven't seen anybody mention the death of Absolute Champion in Hong Kong. Haven't heard the hue and cry of the drugs/dirt track people piping up to explain this.......

[ArlJim78]

Originally Posted by pgiaco

In my time in the game I've had two horses, both fillies, treated with winstrol. Both were bad eaters and had trouble putting on weight after layoffs. While they were able to muscle up it certainly didn't make them any faster. Can't say I'd rush into using it routinely and I am in favor of just getting rid of them.

Also haven't seen anybody mention the death of Absolute Champion in Hong Kong. Haven't heard the hue and cry of the drugs/dirt track people piping up to explain this.......

it was covered in the international section, of course not as many people are aware of it, so the hue and cry is much less. also because its not our jurisdiction. something smells about that incident, and I think it needs investigating. miss storm cat knows much more about it. I think its more to do with whether the horse was sound to race or not.

[pgiaco]

AJ, my point is that it seems to some that the US is the only place horses break down because they are all drugged and running on dirt surfaces. A horse can break down under any circumstances and I think US racing takes a lot of crap from people who don't know squat about the game.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by Kasept

The number I hear is typically about twice that.. Areas of the country preparing to come off steroid programs will certainly be ahead of the curve in ending treatment with it.. It's days are numbered obviously, but I find it laughable that it's being used as the magic cure for 'drugs in racing'. The steroids aren't the problem...

I wouldn't have such a problem with steroids, if guys were using them judiciously with only the horses that need them. But unfortunately that's not the case. You have guys abusing them.

I agree with you that getting rid of steroids certainly isn't a "cure all" for drugs in racing, but I don't think it's a bad place to start. They have to start somewhere. I wish they would get rid of all the drugs. But even if they banned all the drugs, the cheating trainers would still be using undetectable drugs that aren't tested for. That's why we really need to do something similar to Hong Kong where there are cameras everywhere and the barn area is very secure. I know it would be expensive but I think it would pay huge dividends in the long run. I think the handle would increase dramatically once the public had the confidence that the sport was clean.

[SentToStud]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

I wouldn't have such a problem with steroids, if guys were using them judiciously with only the horses that need them. But unfortunately that's not the case. You have guys abusing them.

I agree with you that getting rid of steroids certainly isn't a "cure all" for drugs in racing, but I don't think it's a bad place to start. They have to start somewhere. I wish they would get rid of all the drugs. But even if they banned all the drugs, the cheating trainers would still be using undetectable drugs that aren't tested for. That's why we really need to do something similar to Hong Kong where there are cameras everywhere and the barn area is very secure. I know it would be expensive but I think it would pay huge dividends in the long run. I think the handle would increase dramatically once the public had the confidence that the sport was clean.

Absolutely. What would likely happen is that it would be costly to begin with and some owners and trainers of cheaper horses would go out of business as well as some of the race tracks that depend on them to run.

The drug issue is a bottom up problem. The widespread use and abuse is most prevalent at the lower levels and since penalties are not tough, you are going to have many cheating at all levels.

Too many bad racetracks running too many bad races for too many bad horses.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Here is the view of one farm owner:

Cynthia McGinnes, the co-owner of Thornmar in Chestertown, Md., a 280-acre spread that is one of the state's largest commercial breeding farms, said she was so distressed by an apparent rise in steroid use that she was considering quitting the business.

''I would guess that up to 80 percent of the fillies coming off the track to our farm are on steroids,'' she said. ''They come off the race track so messed up that you can't breed them for a year, and some of them never fully recover. It ruins them. The whole situation is unbelievable and very, very discouraging.''

Here is the entire article:
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpag...pagewanted=all

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

Here is the view of one farm owner:

Cynthia McGinnes, the co-owner of Thornmar in Chestertown, Md., a 280-acre spread that is one of the state's largest commercial breeding farms, said she was so distressed by an apparent rise in steroid use that she was considering quitting the business.

''I would guess that up to 80 percent of the fillies coming off the track to our farm are on steroids,'' she said. ''They come off the race track so messed up that you can't breed them for a year, and some of them never fully recover. It ruins them. The whole situation is unbelievable and very, very discouraging.''

Here is the entire article:
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpag...pagewanted=all

I have 2 mares that have been out of training for a long time that I bred this spring. Neither has gotten in foal after 2 tries. Neither has had a shot of steroids since i had them (at least 2 years). I suppose if I had no history with these fillies I would be blaming steroids. I have also claimed tons of fillies off the track that went right to the shed and got in foal no problem and i am positive that many of them had been getting steroids. I may also add that the article you posted was 18 years old and I have not heard of any major problems in getting mares in foal. As a matter of fact the percentage of mares that get in foal now is higher than ever according to many of the breeders I deal with.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

I wouldn't have such a problem with steroids, if guys were using them judiciously with only the horses that need them. But unfortunately that's not the case. You have guys abusing them.

I agree with you that getting rid of steroids certainly isn't a "cure all" for drugs in racing, but I don't think it's a bad place to start. They have to start somewhere. I wish they would get rid of all the drugs. But even if they banned all the drugs, the cheating trainers would still be using undetectable drugs that aren't tested for. That's why we really need to do something similar to Hong Kong where there are cameras everywhere and the barn area is very secure. I know it would be expensive but I think it would pay huge dividends in the long run. I think the handle would increase dramatically once the public had the confidence that the sport was clean.

I think it would be great but there is no way we could come close to doing what HK does. First of all the scope of racing here makes it impossible to even do it at one track, let alone across the board. We simply dont have the money and the structure of racing is not suited to their rules. All the vets there work for the Jockey Club and the penalities are far more severe, including jail time for intentional violations. That is a far greater deterient than cameras. The problem I have with the cameras is who exactly will be watching all the film? Plus identifing the horses on tape will be close to impossible. I honestly dont think there are tons of bettors sitting on the sidelines waiting for stricter rules.

[Bobby Fischer]

every 15 days...


so basically he's not giving him THAT much steroids at all - but if we test Big Brown, there is a good honest theraupuetic reason for that positive....

In other words should a positve steroid test come out on Brown, he has a good excuse.


Humans use 1-2 ccs a day , many EVERY DAY. If they are a good guy, or gal, they quit for a month after a month. If they don't care the tolerance happens fairly quick and if they want to maintain that effect they may increase the dosage.

Winstrol the cut-up drug.
Forget the hype, It will make you or a horse big. The reason it is a "cut drug" is that it doesn't convert to estrogen as much. Less androgenwhatever. There are some other roids that will pack on body weight more, but you get the estrogen effect. So bodybuilders take it closer to a contest because it reduces the breasts and allows them them to maintain or actually Gain muscle while on a diet of zero fat very little water or carbs.


Not saying Brown is getting a shot every day. I really don't keep track of that.

Maybe some cheaper horses are getting a couple times a week from barns that have the connection capital and morality.

Some trainers, not necessarily Dutrow, get their hands on a filly, and you study it because you are expecting it to look like a tank in a month or two.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by Bobby Fischer

every 15 days...


so basically he's not giving him THAT much steroids at all - but if we test Big Brown, there is a good honest theraupuetic reason for that positive....

In other words should a positve steroid test come out on Brown, he has a good excuse.


Humans use 1-2 ccs a day , many EVERY DAY. If they are a good guy, or gal, they quit for a month after a month. If they don't care the tolerance happens fairly quick and if they want to maintain that effect they may increase the dosage.

Winstrol the cut-up drug.
Forget the hype, It will make you or a horse big. The reason it is a "cut drug" is that it doesn't convert to estrogen as much. Less androgenwhatever. There are some other roids that will pack on body weight more, but you get the estrogen effect. So bodybuilders take it closer to a contest because it reduces the breasts and allows them them to maintain or actually Gain muscle while on a diet of zero fat very little water or carbs.


Not saying Brown is getting a shot every day. I really don't keep track of that.

Maybe some cheaper horses are getting a couple times a week from barns that have the connection capital and morality.

Some trainers, not necessarily Dutrow, get their hands on a filly, and you study it because you are expecting it to look like a tank in a month or two.

Every two weeks is considered a full dose. I don't think there are any horses out there getting steroids more than once every two weeks. Any more than once every two weeks and you would have a horse coming out of his or her skin. I believe some guys do once every 3 weeks.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

I think it would be great but there is no way we could come close to doing what HK does. First of all the scope of racing here makes it impossible to even do it at one track, let alone across the board. We simply dont have the money and the structure of racing is not suited to their rules. All the vets there work for the Jockey Club and the penalities are far more severe, including jail time for intentional violations. That is a far greater deterient than cameras. The problem I have with the cameras is who exactly will be watching all the film? Plus identifing the horses on tape will be close to impossible. I honestly dont think there are tons of bettors sitting on the sidelines waiting for stricter rules.

I think there are a ton of bettors who have walked away from the sport due to their belief that the trainers with the best vets and the best drugs are winning all the races. They see some of the so-called "super trainers" moving horses up 5-10 lengths overnight off a claim. I hear people complain about this all the time. Some of these fans will still come out once in a while and bet small, but they don't take it seriously any more. Some fans have given up racing entirely because of the integrity issue.

I don't see why they couldn't implement a system similar to Hong Kong at the major US tracks. If they had to cut the purses by 5% to pay for it, then so be it.

I heard that in Asia, every horse can be identified when training in the morning. Each horse has his own unique identification number on his saddle cloth and the trainer's name is also on the saddle cloth. I think they should do that here.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

I think there are a ton of bettors who have walked away from the sport due to their belief that the trainers with the best vets and the best drugs are winning all the races. They see some of the so-called "super trainers" moving horses up 5-10 lengths overnight off a claim. I hear people complain about this all the time. Some of these fans will still come out once in a while and bet small, but they don't take it seriously any more. Some fans have given up racing entirely because of the integrity issue.

I don't see why they couldn't implement a system similar to Hong Kong at the major US tracks. If they had to cut the purses by 5% to pay for it, then so be it.

I heard that in Asia, every horse can be identified when training in the morning. Each horse has his own unique identification number on his saddle cloth and the trainer's name is also on the saddle cloth. I think they should do that here.

What you say about people walking away is probably correct but i dont see them returning. I also dont see big move ups off claims stopping regardless of the rules. What happens when we ban everything and that still happens? The reality of the situation and the perception are always going to be 2 different things.

The system in Hong Kong relies on one very secure and fairly isolated barn area, vets that work for the track, all vet work published for all to see and most importantly laws that support it. The system there is set up by the govenment that has very different laws than we do. It just is not feasable here. Maybe we could try to implement some things but because of the set up over there most simply arent applicable. Not to mention the cost which would be far greater than 5% of the purses.

When i was over there i asked a friend of mine who trains there what happens if you switch the saddle towels (which also have a microchip in it and all activity on the track is electronically timed). He told me you can get jail time.

[Honu]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

I don't think there were many guys using steroids in the 1980s. There were a few, but not many. I think it's been the last 15 years or so that the usage has gone up 10x. D Wayne was one of the only guys using steroids in the 1980s and it gave him a big edge, especially with his 2 year olds, who were as mature as 3 year olds due to the steroids.

Right now, I wouldn't even say that the majority of horses are on steroids. I get all of our vet bills and we use about 7 different trainers. Most of our trainers rarely use steroids.

Right now there are some trainers out there who just automatically put all of their horses on a regular steroid regimen. I couldn't tell you exactly what percentage of trainers do that, but my guess would be about 30%. I'm not a big fan of guys who do that. Steroids are not going to help every horse. It depends on the horse. Steroids can move some horses way up, but it can make other horses much worse.

Many big guys in the 80's Rup. but even that would be hard to prove ,I can remember back as far as the late 70's people around the track using steroids at places called Waterford Park , Penn National , Commodore Downs, very cheap tracks with very cheap horses and most trainers did their own vet work.
I really dont have an issue with using a lil steroids here and there preferibly Winstrol over Equipoise , Equipoise has a very dramatic effect on a horses demeaner while Winstrol doesnt and does help with getting horses to eat .
Thankfully I work for someone who hardly ever uses steroids at all , but as long as it is legal I dont see why it should put any kind of a notation next to a horses name , because believe me Big Brown has enough natural talent to win on jellybeans.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by Honu

Many big guys in the 80's Rup. but even that would be hard to prove ,I can remember back as far as the late 70's people around the track using steroids at places called Waterford Park , Penn National , Commodore Downs, very cheap tracks with very cheap horses and most trainers did their own vet work.
I really dont have an issue with using a lil steroids here and there preferibly Winstrol over Equipoise , Equipoise has a very dramatic effect on a horses demeaner while Winstrol doesnt and does help with getting horses to eat .
Thankfully I work for someone who hardly ever uses steroids at all , but as long as it is legal I dont see why it should put any kind of a notation next to a horses name , because believe me Big Brown has enough natural talent to win on jellybeans.

It's funny how some trainers love steroids to the point where they just automatically put all of their horses on a regular steroid regimen. Then other trainers, such as your boss have the comple opposite view. I remember the first horse we ever had with you was that filly that we bought privately from a trainer on the east coast. The first thing that RM said when the filly came in was that we needed to give her some time to get all the steroids out of her system. He thought that steroids were the worst thing for that filly. I think he was right. He gave her about 2-3 months and then she won a graded stakes race.

[Honu]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

It's funny how some trainers love steroids to the point where they just automatically put all of their horses on a regular steroid regimen. Then other trainers, such as your boss have the comple opposite view. I remember the first horse we ever had with you was that filly that we bought privately from a trainer on the east coast. The first thing that RM said when the filly came in was that we needed to give her some time to get all the steroids out of her system. He thought that steroids were the worst thing for that filly. I think he was right. He gave her about 2-3 months and then she won a graded stakes race.

Dude that filly def. did not need steroids , lol , omg on hay and oats she was still like getting a tiger by the tail.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by Honu

Dude that filly def. did not need steroids , lol , omg on hay and oats she was still like getting a tiger by the tail.

Honu, Has that Aldeberan colt come in yet that Team Hughes bought last month in Kentucky? He looked like a nice colt.