Big Brown and Winstrol....questions

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by rontheman1964

Ok, we now know this horse is being injected with a legal steroid (winstrol) on the 15th of every month. Besides the obvious muscle growth this steroid promotes; is anyone worried about possible side effects down the road?

Does anyone on this board know how common is it to give steroids to horses as part of their normal routine? (not to heal an injury) Do all of Dutrow's horses get winstrol? Is it expensive?

If he breaks down on the track do we question why steroids are legal for equine athletes in 28 of the 38 states? (too much 'manufactured' muscle for his skeleton and tendons to support.)

If he wins the Triple Crown do we put an asterisk next to his name like Barry Bonds?

Just asking some questions about this sport where people (some good some bad) get to make the decisions for the equine athletes.

You have to be very careful about giving steroids to fillies, if you are planning on breeding the fillies after they retire. Steroids can lessen their chances of being able to get in foal.

[sumitas]

The race horses are juiced up steroid freaks. At all ages it seems. From the sales to the track. Put a big * next to these horses in the steroid era.

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by sumitas

The race horses are juiced up steroid freaks. At all ages it seems. From the sales to the track. Put a big * next to these horses in the steroid era.

So, in other words, most of the performers for the last 30 years or so?

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by Kasept

So, in other words, most of the performers for the last 30 years or so?

I don't think there were many guys using steroids in the 1980s. There were a few, but not many. I think it's been the last 15 years or so that the usage has gone up 10x. D Wayne was one of the only guys using steroids in the 1980s and it gave him a big edge, especially with his 2 year olds, who were as mature as 3 year olds due to the steroids.

Right now, I wouldn't even say that the majority of horses are on steroids. I get all of our vet bills and we use about 7 different trainers. Most of our trainers rarely use steroids.

Right now there are some trainers out there who just automatically put all of their horses on a regular steroid regimen. I couldn't tell you exactly what percentage of trainers do that, but my guess would be about 30%. I'm not a big fan of guys who do that. Steroids are not going to help every horse. It depends on the horse. Steroids can move some horses way up, but it can make other horses much worse.

[TheSpyder]

Thanks for the view from the inside RP. Nice to hear some facts for a change.

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

I don't think there were many guys using steroids in the 1980s. There were a few, but not many. I think it's been the last 15 years or so that the usage has gone up 10x. D Wayne was one of the only guys using steroids in the 1980s and it gave him a big edge, especially with his 2 year olds, who were as mature as 3 year olds due to the steroids.

Right now, I wouldn't even say that the majority of horses are on steroids. I get all of our vet bills and we use about 7 different trainers. Most of our trainers rarely use steroids.

Right now there are some trainers out there who just automatically put all of their horses on a regular steroid regimen. I couldn't tell you exactly what percentage of trainers do that, but my guess would be about 30%. I'm not a big fan of guys who do that. Steroids are not going to help every horse. It depends on the horse. Steroids can move some horses way up, but it can make other horses much worse.

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

Right now there are some trainers out there who just automatically put all of their horses on a regular steroid regimen. I couldn't tell you exactly what percentage of trainers do that, but my guess would be about 30%.

The number I hear is typically about twice that.. Areas of the country preparing to come off steroid programs will certainly be ahead of the curve in ending treatment with it.. It's days are numbered obviously, but I find it laughable that it's being used as the magic cure for 'drugs in racing'. The steroids aren't the problem...

[pgiaco]

In my time in the game I've had two horses, both fillies, treated with winstrol. Both were bad eaters and had trouble putting on weight after layoffs. While they were able to muscle up it certainly didn't make them any faster. Can't say I'd rush into using it routinely and I am in favor of just getting rid of them.

Also haven't seen anybody mention the death of Absolute Champion in Hong Kong. Haven't heard the hue and cry of the drugs/dirt track people piping up to explain this.......

[ArlJim78]

Originally Posted by pgiaco

In my time in the game I've had two horses, both fillies, treated with winstrol. Both were bad eaters and had trouble putting on weight after layoffs. While they were able to muscle up it certainly didn't make them any faster. Can't say I'd rush into using it routinely and I am in favor of just getting rid of them.

Also haven't seen anybody mention the death of Absolute Champion in Hong Kong. Haven't heard the hue and cry of the drugs/dirt track people piping up to explain this.......

it was covered in the international section, of course not as many people are aware of it, so the hue and cry is much less. also because its not our jurisdiction. something smells about that incident, and I think it needs investigating. miss storm cat knows much more about it. I think its more to do with whether the horse was sound to race or not.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by Kasept

The number I hear is typically about twice that.. Areas of the country preparing to come off steroid programs will certainly be ahead of the curve in ending treatment with it.. It's days are numbered obviously, but I find it laughable that it's being used as the magic cure for 'drugs in racing'. The steroids aren't the problem...

I wouldn't have such a problem with steroids, if guys were using them judiciously with only the horses that need them. But unfortunately that's not the case. You have guys abusing them.

I agree with you that getting rid of steroids certainly isn't a "cure all" for drugs in racing, but I don't think it's a bad place to start. They have to start somewhere. I wish they would get rid of all the drugs. But even if they banned all the drugs, the cheating trainers would still be using undetectable drugs that aren't tested for. That's why we really need to do something similar to Hong Kong where there are cameras everywhere and the barn area is very secure. I know it would be expensive but I think it would pay huge dividends in the long run. I think the handle would increase dramatically once the public had the confidence that the sport was clean.

[SentToStud]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

I wouldn't have such a problem with steroids, if guys were using them judiciously with only the horses that need them. But unfortunately that's not the case. You have guys abusing them.

I agree with you that getting rid of steroids certainly isn't a "cure all" for drugs in racing, but I don't think it's a bad place to start. They have to start somewhere. I wish they would get rid of all the drugs. But even if they banned all the drugs, the cheating trainers would still be using undetectable drugs that aren't tested for. That's why we really need to do something similar to Hong Kong where there are cameras everywhere and the barn area is very secure. I know it would be expensive but I think it would pay huge dividends in the long run. I think the handle would increase dramatically once the public had the confidence that the sport was clean.

Absolutely. What would likely happen is that it would be costly to begin with and some owners and trainers of cheaper horses would go out of business as well as some of the race tracks that depend on them to run.

The drug issue is a bottom up problem. The widespread use and abuse is most prevalent at the lower levels and since penalties are not tough, you are going to have many cheating at all levels.

Too many bad racetracks running too many bad races for too many bad horses.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

I wouldn't have such a problem with steroids, if guys were using them judiciously with only the horses that need them. But unfortunately that's not the case. You have guys abusing them.

I agree with you that getting rid of steroids certainly isn't a "cure all" for drugs in racing, but I don't think it's a bad place to start. They have to start somewhere. I wish they would get rid of all the drugs. But even if they banned all the drugs, the cheating trainers would still be using undetectable drugs that aren't tested for. That's why we really need to do something similar to Hong Kong where there are cameras everywhere and the barn area is very secure. I know it would be expensive but I think it would pay huge dividends in the long run. I think the handle would increase dramatically once the public had the confidence that the sport was clean.

I think it would be great but there is no way we could come close to doing what HK does. First of all the scope of racing here makes it impossible to even do it at one track, let alone across the board. We simply dont have the money and the structure of racing is not suited to their rules. All the vets there work for the Jockey Club and the penalities are far more severe, including jail time for intentional violations. That is a far greater deterient than cameras. The problem I have with the cameras is who exactly will be watching all the film? Plus identifing the horses on tape will be close to impossible. I honestly dont think there are tons of bettors sitting on the sidelines waiting for stricter rules.

[Honu]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

I don't think there were many guys using steroids in the 1980s. There were a few, but not many. I think it's been the last 15 years or so that the usage has gone up 10x. D Wayne was one of the only guys using steroids in the 1980s and it gave him a big edge, especially with his 2 year olds, who were as mature as 3 year olds due to the steroids.

Right now, I wouldn't even say that the majority of horses are on steroids. I get all of our vet bills and we use about 7 different trainers. Most of our trainers rarely use steroids.

Right now there are some trainers out there who just automatically put all of their horses on a regular steroid regimen. I couldn't tell you exactly what percentage of trainers do that, but my guess would be about 30%. I'm not a big fan of guys who do that. Steroids are not going to help every horse. It depends on the horse. Steroids can move some horses way up, but it can make other horses much worse.

Many big guys in the 80's Rup. but even that would be hard to prove ,I can remember back as far as the late 70's people around the track using steroids at places called Waterford Park , Penn National , Commodore Downs, very cheap tracks with very cheap horses and most trainers did their own vet work.
I really dont have an issue with using a lil steroids here and there preferibly Winstrol over Equipoise , Equipoise has a very dramatic effect on a horses demeaner while Winstrol doesnt and does help with getting horses to eat .
Thankfully I work for someone who hardly ever uses steroids at all , but as long as it is legal I dont see why it should put any kind of a notation next to a horses name , because believe me Big Brown has enough natural talent to win on jellybeans.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by Honu

Many big guys in the 80's Rup. but even that would be hard to prove ,I can remember back as far as the late 70's people around the track using steroids at places called Waterford Park , Penn National , Commodore Downs, very cheap tracks with very cheap horses and most trainers did their own vet work.
I really dont have an issue with using a lil steroids here and there preferibly Winstrol over Equipoise , Equipoise has a very dramatic effect on a horses demeaner while Winstrol doesnt and does help with getting horses to eat .
Thankfully I work for someone who hardly ever uses steroids at all , but as long as it is legal I dont see why it should put any kind of a notation next to a horses name , because believe me Big Brown has enough natural talent to win on jellybeans.

It's funny how some trainers love steroids to the point where they just automatically put all of their horses on a regular steroid regimen. Then other trainers, such as your boss have the comple opposite view. I remember the first horse we ever had with you was that filly that we bought privately from a trainer on the east coast. The first thing that RM said when the filly came in was that we needed to give her some time to get all the steroids out of her system. He thought that steroids were the worst thing for that filly. I think he was right. He gave her about 2-3 months and then she won a graded stakes race.

[Honu]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

It's funny how some trainers love steroids to the point where they just automatically put all of their horses on a regular steroid regimen. Then other trainers, such as your boss have the comple opposite view. I remember the first horse we ever had with you was that filly that we bought privately from a trainer on the east coast. The first thing that RM said when the filly came in was that we needed to give her some time to get all the steroids out of her system. He thought that steroids were the worst thing for that filly. I think he was right. He gave her about 2-3 months and then she won a graded stakes race.

Dude that filly def. did not need steroids , lol , omg on hay and oats she was still like getting a tiger by the tail.

[philcski]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

You have to be very careful about giving steroids to fillies, if you are planning on breeding the fillies after they retire. Steroids can lessen their chances of being able to get in foal.

Note the connection to D Wayne- basically ALL of his champion fillies had problems/complications in breeding. I don't think it takes a rocket scientist to figure out why.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by philcski

Note the connection to D Wayne- basically ALL of his champion fillies had problems/complications in breeding. I don't think it takes a rocket scientist to figure out why.

Exactly.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by philcski

Note the connection to D Wayne- basically ALL of his champion fillies had problems/complications in breeding. I don't think it takes a rocket scientist to figure out why.

They did?

He trained three champion females in the 90's:

Flanders: Dam of 4 time Grade 1 winner and $1.8 million earner Surfside.

Serena's Song: Dam of 5 stake horses including Group 1 winner Sophisticat and Grade 2 winners Harlington and Grand Reward.

Golden Attraction: Dam of a stakes winner - and two other horses who are Graded Stakes placed.

His champs in the 80's:

Althea: Dam of 4 different group or Graded Stakes winners.

Family Style: Dam of stakes winner Polish Style

Lady's Secret: Lousy producer in terms of quality - however several of her offspring sold very well.

Landaluce: Never made it into the shed

Life's Magic: Dam of three different horses who earned blacktype

Open Mind: She had problems - only two foals - one of which was 4-2-1-0 and made 300K in Japan

Sacahuista: Dam of Group 1 winning millionaire Ekaraar as well as productive race horse and stallion Hussonet

Winning Colors: Dam of millionaire acution purchase Golden Colors who was 3-for-10 and made over 500K in Japan. Several of hers also sold well - including a $2.5 million Broad Brush dud.

Lukas also trained the excellent top class race mare Terlingua in the early 80's - she was the dam of Storm Cat.

[Danzig]

i'd really appreciate if people would NOT interject these facts to clutter up peoples' perfectly nice threads.

[VOL JACK]

Drugs is on the muscle!!!!!

Reminds me of my wife, I say one thing, she comes back with ten reasons why I am wrong.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

They did?

He trained three champion females in the 90's:

Flanders: Dam of 4 time Grade 1 winner and $1.8 million earner Surfside.

Serena's Song: Dam of 5 stake horses including Group 1 winner Sophisticat and Grade 2 winners Harlington and Grand Reward.

Golden Attraction: Dam of a stakes winner - and two other horses who are Graded Stakes placed.

His champs in the 80's:

Althea: Dam of 4 different group or Graded Stakes winners.

Family Style: Dam of stakes winner Polish Style

Lady's Secret: Lousy producer in terms of quality - however several of her offspring sold very well.

Landaluce: Never made it into the shed

Life's Magic: Dam of three different horses who earned blacktype

Open Mind: She had problems - only two foals - one of which was 4-2-1-0 and made 300K in Japan

Sacahuista: Dam of Group 1 winning millionaire Ekaraar as well as productive race horse and stallion Hussonet

Winning Colors: Dam of millionaire acution purchase Golden Colors who was 3-for-10 and made over 500K in Japan. Several of hers also sold well - including a $2.5 million Broad Brush dud.

Lukas also trained the excellent top class race mare Terlingua in the early 80's - she was the dam of Storm Cat.

So are you saying that all his fillies could walk right off the track and be bred a month or two later with no problem?