Beyer still not sold on Big Brown

[ELA]

Originally Posted by CSC

I think the public would want it, or certainly demand it. I think it would tarnish whatever legacy he wants in the future if he doesn't. Alot has already been made of how mediocre this crop is, the colt atleast deserves a chance to dispel that notion.

It doesn't really matter what the public wants or demands. That's a debate for another time, but as far as reality, it doesn't matter -- not to the owner or the farm. As far as a legacy, it will only tarnish in the eyes of the public or the fan -- which again doesn't matter and is certainly not a concern of the owners, farm, breeder, etc. If the legacy is in the eye of the beholder -- the important eye is not the fan's, but the breeders, mare owners, people who are candidates to send mares, etc.

If the public continues to expect owners to manage their horses to the public's expectation, then the public will continue to be dissappointed.

Eric

[blackthroatedwind]

If he retires after the Belmont I can only hope his foals end up being as spectacular as the Smarmy Jones's are reported to be.

And, oh yeah, Smarmy was one horse I am actually confident Big Brown could have handled. He would have beaten Afleet Alex as well.

Dynever, however, would have crushed him like a grape.

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Dynever, however, would have crushed him like a grape.

Only if there was another horse in the race that could finish first.

[zippyneedsawin]

Not to beat a dead horse here (sorry for the analogy), but who exactly has Casino Drive beaten that we're supposed to be impressed with (as compared to Big Brown)? A bunch of Japanese-bred maidens and a weak Peter Pan field consisting of Mint Lane, Ready's Echo, Golden Spikes, Cosmic, Spark Candle, Tomcito, Deputyville and Fast Talking. I'd say CD is making a big class jump in the Belmont.

[MLC]

Originally Posted by zippyneedsawin

Not to beat a dead horse here (sorry for the analogy), but who exactly has Casino Drive beaten that we're supposed to be impressed with (as compared to Big Brown)? A bunch of Japanese-bred maidens and a weak Peter Pan field consisting of Mint Lane, Ready's Echo, Golden Spikes, Cosmic, Spark Candle, Tomcito, Deputyville and Fast Talking. I'd say CD is making a big class jump in the Belmont.

Didn't Tomcito get up for 3rd in Big Brown's Florida Derby?

[CSC]

Originally Posted by zippyneedsawin

Not to beat a dead horse here (sorry for the analogy), but who exactly has Casino Drive beaten that we're supposed to be impressed with (as compared to Big Brown)? A bunch of Japanese-bred maidens and a weak Peter Pan field consisting of Mint Lane, Ready's Echo, Golden Spikes, Cosmic, Spark Candle, Tomcito, Deputyville and Fast Talking. I'd say CD is making a big class jump in the Belmont.

He's(CD) getting press because frankly this crop is very mediocre. The only horse that has shown any ability to give him a race is pointing for racing in Canada and that is why we are left searching and building up horses that perhaps don't deserve the press. At this moment unless someone improves drastically and if Big Brown stays healthy it looks he will join the TC club.

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by zippyneedsawin

Not to beat a dead horse here (sorry for the analogy), but who exactly has Casino Drive beaten that we're supposed to be impressed with (as compared to Big Brown)? A bunch of Japanese-bred maidens and a weak Peter Pan field consisting of Mint Lane, Ready's Echo, Golden Spikes, Cosmic, Spark Candle, Tomcito, Deputyville and Fast Talking. I'd say CD is making a big class jump in the Belmont.

Who exactly has Big Brown beat that we are supposed to be impressed with? Mint Lane and Icabad Crane are relatively equal horses and both were beaten by a similar number of lengths. Neither have beat anything and when they square off it will likely be the best horse either of them have faced. I, for one, am strongly hoping Big Brown loses cause if I have to hear anymore "best since Spectacular Bid" and "up there with Secretariat and Seattle Slew" comments about Big Brown I'll vomit.

[SniperSB23]

I just read the Big Brown, Big Red, and IEAH thread and vomited all over my keyboard.

[ArlJim78]

there's going to be mass vomiting in the days and weeks to come I feel.

[CSC]

Originally Posted by ELA

It doesn't really matter what the public wants or demands. That's a debate for another time, but as far as reality, it doesn't matter -- not to the owner or the farm. As far as a legacy, it will only tarnish in the eyes of the public or the fan -- which again doesn't matter and is certainly not a concern of the owners, farm, breeder, etc. If the legacy is in the eye of the beholder -- the important eye is not the fan's, but the breeders, mare owners, people who are candidates to send mares, etc.

If the public continues to expect owners to manage their horses to the public's expectation, then the public will continue to be dissappointed.

Eric

This is a debate for another time...I don't begrudge owners for trying to maximize their investments; however I guess I miss the days of having owners like Allen Paulson. A Sportsman that sold the game, surely if he retired Cigar after the BC in 1995, I doubt many young fans at that time would have gotten into this game, and that is the dilema I believe. There will always be core bettors that play the game but will newspapers and the media continue to pay attention if the game loses more fans. Sorry I kind of said more than I perhaps wanted to...that's another topic all together.

[sumitas]

BB is no Ghostzapper.

http://www.adenastallions.com/stalli...id=Ghostzapper

[ELA]

Originally Posted by CSC

This is a debate for another time...I don't begrudge owners for trying to maximize their investments; however I guess I miss the days of having owners like Allen Paulson. A Sportsman that sold the game, surely if he retired Cigar after the BC in 1995, I doubt many young fans at that time would have gotten into this game, and that is the dilema I believe. There will always be core bettors that play the game but will newspapers and the media continue to pay attention if the game loses more fans. Sorry I kind of said more than I perhaps wanted to...that's another topic all together.

I completely understand your point, and I agree. However, I am also very clear on and aware of reality. Rather than debate who is and how a sportsmen would act, what I see is a very quick trigger pulled when an owner "disappoints" the public. It's become the common reaction, however, it also often comes from people who just don't understand the business. I hear people "count other people's money" and talk about a horse who could breed 100 mares at $75k and that's $15m in the first two years at stud. I've read this nonsense more than once.

Another example is James Tafel and Street Sense. As soon as he decided not to run in the Belmont, the gates of criticism burst wide open. In my opinion that was foolishness. Sure, different people have a different definition, but to critcize Tafel and say he's not a sportsmen -- that's BS.

Eric

[CSC]

Originally Posted by ELA

I completely understand your point, and I agree. However, I am also very clear on and aware of reality. Rather than debate who is and how a sportsmen would act, what I see is a very quick trigger pulled when an owner "disappoints" the public. It's become the common reaction, however, it also often comes from people who just don't understand the business. I hear people "count other people's money" and talk about a horse who could breed 100 mares at $75k and that's $15m in the first two years at stud. I've read this nonsense more than once.

Another example is James Tafel and Street Sense. As soon as he decided not to run in the Belmont, the gates of criticism burst wide open. In my opinion that was foolishness. Sure, different people have a different definition, but to critcize Tafel and say he's not a sportsmen -- that's BS.

Eric

Perhaps we should examine the breeding industry as a whole then, 100K for Big Brown is an awful lot money for a debut sire when you look at his pedigree and the competition he has faced thus far. Once again I don't begrudge the owners at all, I understand what you said. I just wish there were more owners like Paulson.

[freddymo]

Thre aren't too many horses to win the TC so 100k is fair starting point.. What is the difference were he starts within 3 years you know if 50mil was cheap or extremely costly.

[GenuineRisk]

Originally Posted by ELA

I completely understand your point, and I agree. However, I am also very clear on and aware of reality. Rather than debate who is and how a sportsmen would act, what I see is a very quick trigger pulled when an owner "disappoints" the public. It's become the common reaction, however, it also often comes from people who just don't understand the business. I hear people "count other people's money" and talk about a horse who could breed 100 mares at $75k and that's $15m in the first two years at stud. I've read this nonsense more than once.

Another example is James Tafel and Street Sense. As soon as he decided not to run in the Belmont, the gates of criticism burst wide open. In my opinion that was foolishness. Sure, different people have a different definition, but to critcize Tafel and say he's not a sportsmen -- that's BS.

Eric

Eric, as I remember, right after Street Sense lost the Preakness, Nafzger was asked about the Belmont and his response was, "What's the point?" I think Nafzger is a terrific trainer, and I never get tired of that clip of him with Frances Gentner after Unbridled won the Derby, but as a racing fan, Street Sense fan, (and NYer), I felt a little kicked in the teeth about the Belmont. I understand racing owners and trainers have to be half sportsmen and half investment portfolio managers, because of breeding values being so much higher than racing values, but, as a result, racing fans will be disappointed when a race is skipped because it won't help breeding value, and as this board shows, racing fans tend not to be quiet about voicing displeasure. (Which is true of all sports fans, actually. Maybe not tennis. At least not during the game. Or golf. I don't think I recall anyone yelling, "You suck!" at the Masters. That would be pretty hilarious, actually...)

On the other hand, had Street Sense gone into the Belmont, Rags to Riches would not have, and that duel down the stretch was pretty awesome to watch. Maybe it would have been a better race with SS in it, but I was pretty happy with it as it was.

[ELA]

Originally Posted by GenuineRisk

Eric, as I remember, right after Street Sense lost the Preakness, Nafzger was asked about the Belmont and his response was, "What's the point?" I think Nafzger is a terrific trainer, and I never get tired of that clip of him with Frances Gentner after Unbridled won the Derby, but as a racing fan, Street Sense fan, (and NYer), I felt a little kicked in the teeth about the Belmont. I understand racing owners and trainers have to be half sportsmen and half investment portfolio managers, because of breeding values being so much higher than racing values, but, as a result, racing fans will be disappointed when a race is skipped because it won't help breeding value, and as this board shows, racing fans tend not to be quiet about voicing displeasure. (Which is true of all sports fans, actually. Maybe not tennis. At least not during the game. Or golf. I don't think I recall anyone yelling, "You suck!" at the Masters. That would be pretty hilarious, actually...)

On the other hand, had Street Sense gone into the Belmont, Rags to Riches would not have, and that duel down the stretch was pretty awesome to watch. Maybe it would have been a better race with SS in it, but I was pretty happy with it as it was.

I agree. However, I also see it slightly different. When Nafzger was asked about the Belmont, I think, in part, he was still somewhat disappointed that they got beat in MD. Maybe it wasn't the most PC thing to say, but I think there was an emotional element to it. Street Sense went by Curlin, pretty easy, looked like a winner -- then came the "we got it" -- and they didn't. A nuance, a beaten horse comes back and takes away all hopes of possible immortality.

I understand fans get disappointed, and are vocal. I am too. I just don't always voice it in a public forum. I could sit around with Bob Fox, Andy and Steve and talk about this stuff all night long. I've done it. However, it's also about what happens next, after the disappointment. Different people are wired differently.

Eric

[GenuineRisk]

Originally Posted by ELA

I agree. However, I also see it slightly different. When Nafzger was asked about the Belmont, I think, in part, he was still somewhat disappointed that they got beat in MD. Maybe it wasn't the most PC thing to say, but I think there was an emotional element to it. Street Sense went by Curlin, pretty easy, looked like a winner -- then came the "we got it" -- and they didn't. A nuance, a beaten horse comes back and takes away all hopes of possible immortality.

I understand fans get disappointed, and are vocal. I am too. I just don't always voice it in a public forum. I could sit around with Bob Fox, Andy and Steve and talk about this stuff all night long. I've done it. However, it's also about what happens next, after the disappointment. Different people are wired differently.

Eric

Yeah, as a Street Sense fan, I was also pretty glum that day.

The breeding thing really gets to a fan, though. I loved Street Sense, was sooo bummed when he lost the Preakness, and then when he didn't come to the Belmont, hopped entirely off the bandwagon because I figured what was the point in cheering for a horse whom I knew would only be around for a few more races? It's the hard thing-you get so emotionally attached to your favorites and then they're gone, just a few races after you had a chance to discover them. Sometimes I feel being a racing fan means living in a continual state of fear of disappointment. And yet we still get back up after the inevitable disappointment and look for a new horse to champion. We're either eternally optimistic or very masochistic. Or both.

I think the people here get vocal on a public forum because for a lot of us, it's the only chance we really have to spend time with fellow racing fans, and you get overly excited talking about something you love so much. How lovely that you've had all night bull sessions on racing- for many of us, that's just not an option- not enough racing fans in our circles. So we yell and vent and brag and bemoan here.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by GenuineRisk

Yeah, as a Street Sense fan, I was also pretty glum that day.

The breeding thing really gets to a fan, though. I loved Street Sense, was sooo bummed when he lost the Preakness, and then when he didn't come to the Belmont, hopped entirely off the bandwagon because I figured what was the point in cheering for a horse whom I knew would only be around for a few more races? It's the hard thing-you get so emotionally attached to your favorites and then they're gone, just a few races after you had a chance to discover them. Sometimes I feel being a racing fan means living in a continual state of fear of disappointment. And yet we still get back up after the inevitable disappointment and look for a new horse to champion. We're either eternally optimistic or very masochistic. Or both.

I think the people here get vocal on a public forum because for a lot of us, it's the only chance we really have to spend time with fellow racing fans, and you get overly excited talking about something you love so much. How lovely that you've had all night bull sessions on racing- for many of us, that's just not an option- not enough racing fans in our circles. So we yell and vent and brag and bemoan here.

not one horse has gained any fandom from me this year. i didn't warm to any of them. liked hard spun last year, but that was due to his sire more than anything. not many danzigs left to cheer on.
in the last year, i've only really gotten excited for a few races. every dee tee race, and last years' belmont.
this year? yawn