Bush trying to keep waterboarding

[SCUDSBROTHER]

Originally Posted by pgardn

A very difficult decision had to be made in WWII
about Japan. It is still being debated today.
I happen to think it was horrible but a correct
decision. I dont think anybody WANTED to do
this, the felt they had to. There is a difference.

I am against torture in all forms.What happened during the 2nd World War was not torture.We could either lose Japanese and American lives in a land war invading Japan,or we could lose Japanese lives in a way that would convince them to stop fighting us.That was not torture.It was war.We didn't have those people in our custody.I am against torture of anybody.Don't treat your prisoners the way scum does.Treat them the way you would want American prisoners treated,or don't complain when our men are tortured.The reason to have prisoners is to keep them from harming others.They aren't for you to do as you please with.I don't know when we started acting like this,but I will never think (in any case)that it's anything less than dog activity.

[GBBob]

Originally Posted by SCUDSBROTHER

I am against torture in all forms.What happened during the 2nd World War was not torture.We could either lose Japanese and American lives in a land war invading Japan,or we could lose Japanese lives in a way that would convince them to stop fighting us.That was not torture.It was war.We didn't have those people in our custody.I am against torture of anybody.Don't treat your prisoners the way scum does.Treat them the way you would want American prisoners treated,or don't complain when our men are tortured.The reason to have prisoners is to keep them from harming others.They aren't for you to do as you please with.I don't know when we started acting like this,but I will never think (in any case)that it's anything less than dog activity.

There's a difference between random torture for "funsies" and the need to get information to save thousands. Do you differentiate between the two at all?

[SCUDSBROTHER]

Originally Posted by GBBob

There's a difference between random torture for "funsies" and the need to get information to save thousands. Do you differentiate between the two at all?

No,I don't rationalize in order to act like a dog.You can always come up with reasons to act badly.There is no end to that.We disagree about whether they are your property to do this with.You keep using a reward to justify an evil.Please step back to the earlier step and evaluate that before you get to this dessert you keep offering up.The 1st step is whether you believe they are ours to do this with.It's about whether they are our property to abuse,and I fundamentally disagree with those who believe that prisoners are our property to treat as we see fit.Now,once you have got past this step(and you agree that they are ours to do what we want with,)then go forward with this reward (to make it seem a good thing.)We are too quick to get to the prize,and we skip steps.The primary step is are they ours to do this with.To me,you need to say yes or no to that before you get to what good things you think torture will bring you.So,no,I can't get to this reward you speak of because I can't agree to ever treat them like we own them.To me,they are there to keep them away from the rest of society.They are not there for us to torture.I can't get to all these prizes you offer,because you are in the wrong(before you even offer the prize....you're wrong for treating a prisoner like they are a kids doll.)You can't make that right.

[GBBob]

Originally Posted by SCUDSBROTHER

No,I don't rationalize in order to act like a dog.You can always come up with reasons to act badly.There is no end to that.We disagree about whether they are your property to do this with.You keep using a reward to justify an evil.Please step back to the earlier step and evaluate that before you get to this dessert you keep offering up.The 1st step is whether you believe they are ours to do this with.It's about whether they are our property to abuse,and I fundamentally disagree with those who believe that prisoners are our property to treat as we see fit.Now,once you have got past this step(and you agree that they are ours to do what we want with,)then go forward with this reward (to make it seem a good thing.)We are too quick to get to the prize,and we skip steps.The primary step is are they ours to do this with.To me,you need to say yes or no to that before you get to what good things you think torture will bring you.So,no,I can't get to this reward you speak of because I can't agree to ever treat them like we own them.To me,they are there to keep them away from the rest of society.They are not there for us to torture.I can't get to all these prizes you offer,because you are in the wrong(before you even offer the prize....you're wrong for treating a prisoner like they are a kids doll.)You can't make that right.

Scuds...this "reward" could be my daughter or a family member of yours. I will never agree with the death penalty (please..no new threads) because I don't think the State should have that power. And yes, I've sat at a million parties where the.."If your daughter" scenario is played out..horrible stuff. But if your life could be saved by a waterboard..sorry..I am in favor of that.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by SCUDSBROTHER

I am against torture in all forms.What happened during the 2nd World War was not torture.We could either lose Japanese and American lives in a land war invading Japan,or we could lose Japanese lives in a way that would convince them to stop fighting us.That was not torture.It was war.We didn't have those people in our custody.I am against torture of anybody.Don't treat your prisoners the way scum does.Treat them the way you would want American prisoners treated,or don't complain when our men are tortured.The reason to have prisoners is to keep them from harming others.They aren't for you to do as you please with.I don't know when we started acting like this,but I will never think (in any case)that it's anything less than dog activity.

There is pretty compelling evidence that the Japanese ate many of our prisoners of war.

[SCUDSBROTHER]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

There is pretty compelling evidence that the Japanese ate many of our prisoners of war.

Yes,but what does this gem have to do with us torturing our prisoners?We certainly don't want to act like that scum did.It wouldn't have been excessive to turn that island into glass,but we didn't do it.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by SCUDSBROTHER

I am against torture in all forms.What happened during the 2nd World War was not torture.We could either lose Japanese and American lives in a land war invading Japan,or we could lose Japanese lives in a way that would convince them to stop fighting us.That was not torture.It was war.We didn't have those people in our custody.I am against torture of anybody.Don't treat your prisoners the way scum does.Treat them the way you would want American prisoners treated,or don't complain when our men are tortured.The reason to have prisoners is to keep them from harming others.They aren't for you to do as you please with.I don't know when we started acting like this,but I will never think (in any case)that it's anything less than dog activity.

So we should just turn em lose and nuke em?

Originally Posted by SCUDSBROTHER

I am against torture in all forms.What happened during the 2nd World War was not torture.We could either lose Japanese and American lives in a land war invading Japan,or we could lose Japanese lives in a way that would convince them to stop fighting us.That was not torture.It was war.We didn't have those people in our custody.I am against torture of anybody.Don't treat your prisoners the way scum does.Treat them the way you would want American prisoners treated,or don't complain when our men are tortured.The reason to have prisoners is to keep them from harming others.They aren't for you to do as you please with.I don't know when we started acting like this,but I will never think (in any case)that it's anything less than dog activity.

If American prisoners were knowingly withholding information that
would help stop the decimation of a huge numer of innoncent people
all intended to terrorize other innocent people as a whole, I would want them
waterboarded.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by pgardn

If American prisoners were knowingly withholding information that
would help stop the decimation of a huge numer of innoncent people
all intended to terrorize other innocent people as a whole, I would want them
waterboarded.

I would like Isiah Thomas waterboarded

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

I would like Isiah Thomas waterboarded

I think he has been.
No detectable response.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by pgardn

I think he has been.
No detectable response.

Actually the fans feel like they have been while watching the games...

[Cannon Shell]

What I would like to know is that the "studies" that say it may not be effective actually were done? Do they take out ads in The Bagdad News asking for volunteers? "If you are a terrorist and would like to make a few extra dollars without killing anyone, please stop by the U of Iraq and take part in our torture seminar"?

[golfer]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

I would like Isiah Thomas waterboarded

What amazingly valuable and important information do you believe this would provide? (other than what pictures he's using for blackmail)

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by golfer

What amazingly valuable and important information do you believe this would provide? (other than what pictures he's using for blackmail)

None, but it would make me feel better

[SCUDSBROTHER]

Originally Posted by pgardn

If American prisoners were knowingly withholding information that
would help stop the decimation of a huge numer of innoncent people
all intended to terrorize other innocent people as a whole, I would want them
waterboarded.

See,you've allowed yourself to go right on by the 1st question(do we ever have the right to treat them like we own them.)Can you answer this please.

[GBBob]

Originally Posted by SCUDSBROTHER

See,you've allowed yourself to go right on by the 1st question(do we ever have the right to treat them like we own them.)Can you answer this please.

Two seperate things...one doesn't equal the other. Slavery was owning without an endgame.

[SCUDSBROTHER]

Originally Posted by GBBob

Two seperate things...one doesn't equal the other. Slavery was owning without an endgame.

Well,I am never going to agree to go fishing for information by way of torture.I am not interested in the quality of the information(it will be a very mixed bag.).That is not the point.The point is that they aren't there for us to experiment with.They are there to keep them away from innocent people.

[GBBob]

Originally Posted by SCUDSBROTHER

Well,I am never going to agree to go fishing for information by way of torture.I am not interested in the quality of the information(it will be a very mixed bag.).That is not the point.The point is that they aren't there for us to experiment with.They are there to keep them away from innocent people.

For what it's worth, we're very close. I don't want to go on the fishing trip either, but to out and out ban "that"...I can't do it

[SCUDSBROTHER]

Originally Posted by GBBob

For what it's worth, we're very close. I don't want to go on the fishing trip either, but to out and out ban "that"...I can't do it

I don't see it as giving something up.I see it as not allowing abuse.BTW,we would be much better off if we took a strong stand on this,and didn't look luke warm about it.I would think after Abu Garab,we would want to give off a much different message than this.