Kidd to Mavs

[Cannon Shell]

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=3244102

NJ did well in getting a good, 24 year old PG and freeing up a bunch of salary cap space in addition to getting a number #1 and #2. Though Dallas figures to make the playoffs and the picks wont be very high, the fact is that there have been many late draft picks that have made big impacts lately and the salary structure for incoming players is already pretty set. If only they hadnt wasted so much money resigning Carter...

Stephon is on the trading block.

[King Glorious]

I like the trade. I think Dallas had to make the move in order to go after a title now. Kidd will help them more THIS SEASON than Harris will. Tomorrow is never guaranteed. This is the same thing I liked about Phoenix' trade for Shaq. If, as an owner or general manager, you look at your roster and know that you are good but not going to win a title, you make moves that you believe will make you better now. Simple. This is the problem the gm in Chicago didn't understand. They had chances last year and in the off-season to trade for Garnett or Gasol. They didn't make either move because they didn't want to get rid of Deng or Gordon. Those guys are fine players but as constructed, the Bulls were NOT going to win a title. So why hold on to them? Harris is a fine player and will be around for years after Kidd is gone but the chance to win a title is now so I applaud the move. The obvious area that it will hurt Dallas is in losing Diop. As unproductive as he is offensively, when combined with Dampier, they are at least a presence on defense and if nothing else, a big body and six more fouls to use against the dominant inside men of the West (Shaq, Bynum, Stoudamire, Duncan, Ming). It will not surprise me if after the Nets buyout Stackhouse, he resigns with the Mavs. One thing that I think the Mavs blew was the chance to sign Chris Webber. Webber is merely a shadow of his former self but I think he could have fit in well off of the bench for this team. If Dallas had pulled the trigger on this deal earlier, the addition of Kidd might have been enough to make Webber want to go there instead of to Golden State.

The playoffs in the West this year are probably going to be as strong as ever in the history of the game. It's going to be brutal. I think that it's going to be so brutal that it could actually end up helping the team that wins the East to the title. I think back to the first half of the 1980's when the East was so strong with Boston, Philadelphia, and Milwaukee and while they were killing each other, the Lakers were skating through the West.

They're going to miss Stackhouse in the playoffs. Dirk is not exactly Mr. Clutch in crunch time.

[moke0043]

Originally Posted by Pillow Pants

They're going to miss Stackhouse in the playoffs. Dirk is not exactly Mr. Clutch in crunch time.

Totally agree about Dirk totally crumbling when the Mavs need him most.

[golfer]

[quote=Cannon Shell]http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=3244102

NJ did well in getting a good, 24 year old PG and freeing up a bunch of salary cap space in addition to getting a number #1 and #2. Though Dallas figures to make the playoffs and the picks wont be very high, the fact is that there have been many late draft picks that have made big impacts lately and the salary structure for incoming players is already pretty set. If only they hadnt wasted so much money resigning Carter...[/QUOTE]

I agree (I may be the only Nets fan on this board ) Re-signing Carter was based on Kidd being around. Unless he steps up his game now that Kidd is gone, the present and near-future aren't that bright. But they may now try to trade Carter.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by Pillow Pants

They're going to miss Stackhouse in the playoffs. Dirk is not exactly Mr. Clutch in crunch time.

Dirk has troubles with long, athletic guys bothering him on the perimeter and against Golden State, he certainly had his struggles. But I would like to argue that Dirk doesn't come through in the clutch. Look back to that series in 2006 against the Spurs. Dirk went for 27.1 points and 13.3 boards in that seven game series, including 37 and 15 in the final game, at San Antonio. In the next series, against Phoenix, he went for 28.0 and 13.2 in a six game series, including a 50 point night in game five after the Suns had tied the series. Those numbers went down to 22.8 and 10.8 in the championship series against Miami and he had 29 and 15 in the final game. How much more is one guy supposed to do? It just so happened that his team was beaten by a better player in Wade.

Dirk has career averages of 22.3 points and 8.6 rebounds per game, numbers that go up to 25.2 and 11.1 in the playoffs. That's not what a choker does. How many superstars have led their teams to titles in the last 25 years?

Moses Malone
Magic Johnson
Larry Bird
Isaiah Thomas
Michael Jordan
Hakeem Olajuwon
Tim Duncan
Shaquille O'Neal
Dwayne Wade

That means that a whole lot of other superstars have lost in the clutch. Charles Barkley, Karl Malone, and Patrick Ewing were all superstars but they lost when they went up against a better player in Jordan. That's not a disgrace. Dirk's struggles last year reminded me of Magic back in 1981 against the Rockets when the 54-win Lakers were upset in the first round by the 40-win Rockets.

Compare Dirk's career playoff numbers to the greats in the history of the game and I think that you would be surprised at how he rates.

Originally Posted by King Glorious

Dirk has troubles with long, athletic guys bothering him on the perimeter and against Golden State, he certainly had his struggles. But I would like to argue that Dirk doesn't come through in the clutch. Look back to that series in 2006 against the Spurs. Dirk went for 27.1 points and 13.3 boards in that seven game series, including 37 and 15 in the final game, at San Antonio. In the next series, against Phoenix, he went for 28.0 and 13.2 in a six game series, including a 50 point night in game five after the Suns had tied the series. Those numbers went down to 22.8 and 10.8 in the championship series against Miami and he had 29 and 15 in the final game. How much more is one guy supposed to do? It just so happened that his team was beaten by a better player in Wade.

Dirk has career averages of 22.3 points and 8.6 rebounds per game, numbers that go up to 25.2 and 11.1 in the playoffs. That's not what a choker does. How many superstars have led their teams to titles in the last 25 years?

Moses Malone
Magic Johnson
Larry Bird
Isaiah Thomas
Michael Jordan
Hakeem Olajuwon
Tim Duncan
Shaquille O'Neal
Dwayne Wade

That means that a whole lot of other superstars have lost in the clutch. Charles Barkley, Karl Malone, and Patrick Ewing were all superstars but they lost when they went up against a better player in Jordan. That's not a disgrace. Dirk's struggles last year reminded me of Magic back in 1981 against the Rockets when the 54-win Lakers were upset in the first round by the 40-win Rockets.

Compare Dirk's career playoff numbers to the greats in the history of the game and I think that you would be surprised at how he rates.

Yeah the thing is there's no Jordan now. All three of the guys you mentioned would've had a ring if they played in this era.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by Pillow Pants

Yeah the thing is there's no Jordan now. All three of the guys you mentioned would've had a ring if they played in this era.

The point was that usually, the best will beat the second best. Tim Duncan is arguably the best power forward in the history of the game and will likely be ranked as a top 20 player of all time if not top 10. To come up short against a team led by him is not a disgrace. Dirk's prime years have come during the prime years of Duncan's. LeBron is arguably the best in the game now and he came up short to Duncan's team too. Wade had one of the greatest series' ever in the league. He's a future hall of fame player. To lose to another great player (teamed with a motivated Shaq) doesn't mean he choked.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by Cardus

Certainly Barkley and Malone's teams would have won in a non-Jordan era. Funny thing about Ewing was that his team had a shot against a non-Jordan team in The Finals.

Ewing played very well in that championship against Olajuwon.

Watching the Knicks in the mid-90s was great, great sports theatre in New York.

Barkley and Malone both were playing in the years that Jordan sat out and Ewing got to the finals. They just lost to a better player in Olajuwon. What is interesting is that the Rockets beat Malone's Jazz and Barkley's Suns in BOTH title years.

Originally Posted by King Glorious

The point was that usually, the best will beat the second best. Tim Duncan is arguably the best power forward in the history of the game and will likely be ranked as a top 20 player of all time if not top 10. To come up short against a team led by him is not a disgrace. Dirk's prime years have come during the prime years of Duncan's. LeBron is arguably the best in the game now and he came up short to Duncan's team too. Wade had one of the greatest series' ever in the league. He's a future hall of fame player. To lose to another great player (teamed with a motivated Shaq) doesn't mean he choked.

*sigh*

Do you think Nowitski is better than Ewing, Barkley or Malone?

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by Pillow Pants

*sigh*

Do you think Nowitski is better than Ewing, Barkley or Malone?

Ewing, yes. Barkley and Malone, no.

I think that Ewing was a better regular season player. Offensively, they were pretty even. Ewing was a dominant defender though and that's where he gets the edge. But check out the playoff numbers. Ewing's number's don't improve. Dirk's do. I looked at the career numbers of both players. To be fair, I counted Ewing's numbers only up to the age of 34 and I didn't count Dirk's rookie season, when he only played 47 games and 20 minutes per game.

Ewing Regular Season/Playoffs
23.6 points, 10.4 boards, 2.1 assists, 2.76 blocks, 3.3 turnovers
22.5...........10.9............2.4...........2.51. ...........2.8

Nowitzki Regular Season/Playoffs
23.1 points, 8.9 boards, 2.8 assists, 1.08 blocks, 1.9 turnovers
25.2...........11.1..........2.4............1.05.. .........2.2

Ewing was great in college.
I just dont think he was that
great as a pro.

Ewing is nowhere near Malone, Hakeem,
etc... David Robinson was a heck of
a lot better than Ewing but could not win
squat until Duncan came. I dont know how
people can ever forget Moses Malone. He was
a beast. Seems to be left out of a lot of
conversations when discussing top big men.

I think Dirk will be helped out tremendously with
the addition of Kidd. Kidd will help them get past
teams like Phoenix and Golden State. As a Spurs
fan I like the trade because the only guy that
could cover Parker on Dallas might be gone.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by pgardn

Ewing was great in college.
I just dont think he was that
great as a pro.

Ewing is nowhere near Malone, Hakeem,
etc... David Robinson was a heck of
a lot better than Ewing but could not win
squat until Duncan came. I dont know how
people can ever forget Moses Malone. He was
a beast. Seems to be left out of a lot of
conversations when discussing top big men.

I think Dirk will be helped out tremendously with
the addition of Kidd. Kidd will help them get past
teams like Phoenix and Golden State. As a Spurs
fan I like the trade because the only guy that
could cover Parker on Dallas might be gone.

I think you might have missed Ewings selection to the 50 greatest players of the NBA. He was nowhere near Malone, Hakeem, Robinson? Are you serious?

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

I think you might have missed Ewings selection to the 50 greatest players of the NBA. He was nowhere near Malone, Hakeem, Robinson? Are you serious?

Not even close imo.
Baseline jumper.
Tough guy, good player but
way slow. Not even close...
If David Robinson had played in NY
he would have been the 2nd coming.
Duncan would now be the best of all time
if NY had won 4 titles with him.

Of course I was not allowed to vote on the top 50.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by pgardn

Not even close imo.
Baseline jumper.
Tough guy, good player but
way slow. Not even close...
If David Robinson had played in NY
he would have been the 2nd coming.
Duncan would now be the best of all time
if NY had won 4 titles with him.

Of course I was not allowed to vote on the top 50.

Ewing was too slow? Did you ever see him play in the NBA? Ewing was only the best defensive center of the modern era and he happened to show up and play hard every night and put in 25 and grab 12. You may favor others but to say that its not even close shows a complete lack of understanding of the game of basketball.

[timmgirvan]

Not so fast,my friends! Deavon Georges' agent is holding up the deal...to be continued!

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Ewing was too slow? Did you ever see him play in the NBA? Ewing was only the best defensive center of the modern era and he happened to show up and play hard every night and put in 25 and grab 12. You may favor others but to say that its not even close shows a complete lack of understanding of the game of basketball.

Ewing was not even close to Robinson as a defender.
Ewing also got injured fairly early on and it severely limited
his mobility.
Better than Malone and Hakeem as a defender. Not as good as Duncan as
a defender. No San Antonio bias of course.

ANd I really do believe he is a clear cut below
Moses Malone, Hakeem, Robinson and currently Duncan.
And yes I saw them all play multiple times.

Im dead serious. I dont think he was as good.
He goal tended as much as any center I have seen
on some horrible shots. In college and in the pros.

I do agree he was very tough and always gave
full effort. If David Robinson had done the same...
no one would forget him. Just not as talented as the
guys I mention above. Ewing playing on a team in the
midsection of the country would not have made the
top 50 imo. One has to admit that where a player
plays has a big impact on the press a player gets.

Originally Posted by timmgirvan

Not so fast,my friends! Deavon Georges' agent is holding up the deal...to be continued!

Somehow I think Cuban makes this work.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Ewing was too slow? Did you ever see him play in the NBA? Ewing was only the best defensive center of the modern era and he happened to show up and play hard every night and put in 25 and grab 12. You may favor others but to say that its not even close shows a complete lack of understanding of the game of basketball.

I think you are a little bit off here. When Ewing came into the league, people thought he'd be a defensive star more than offensive. It was his offense that ended up surprising people but his rebounding numbers were often criticized because they weren't where people thought they should be. He also was not even close to being the best defensive center of his era. Better than Olajuwon or Robinson or Mutombo? Seriously?

Times voted as defensive player of the year:
Ewing-0
Robinson-1
Mutombo-4
Olajuwon-2

Times on the NBA all defensive team 1st/2nd:
Ewing-0/3
Robinson 4/4
Mutombo 3/3
Olajuwon-5/4

Times in the top five in blocks per game:
Ewing-5 times (0 times led the league)
Robinson-7 (1)
Mutombo-10 (5)
Olajuwon-12 (3)

Times in the top five in rebounds per game:
Ewing-4 (0 times led the league)
Robinson-5 (1)
Mutombo-9 (2)
Olajuwon-7 (2)