Landis Tests + for blood doping

Originally Posted by SCUDSBROTHER

This Sport is for geeks.Doesn't surprise me that the resident Science teacher is interested.Tell me this,teacher,if the blasting power from many explosives comes from the massive amount of energy released from nitro-organic compounds(when Nitrogen gas is formed,)then why doesn't it also take a great deal of energy to form the nitro-organic compounds?(or does it indeed take a lot of energy to form them.)For instance,this compound:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RDX

The conservation of energy is a powerful idea my good little dawg man. Here is the deal. Chemical bonds contain an enormous amount of energy. In fact the atom itself is held together by very powerful forces... thus breaking the atom, the atomic bomb, was quite a display. The bonding energy between the protons and neutrons of the atom is massive, getting it to come apart and to convert it into other forms of energy, heat, sound, and various forms of radiation, is a task we have sadly mastered. So quite simply, when the universe first cooled enough for atoms to actually be formed, that energy was trapped. We found a way to release it. The energy was already there when the universe first formec.
Now in explosives what you are basically doing is breaking chemical bonds that in most cases already exist. The energy is already there. All one is doing is taking chemical bond energy, and making it easier to turn into an enormous amount of heat energy very rapidly by tweaking a few bonds here and there and that does not require much energy. Kinda like pushing a big boulder on a frictionless surface 1 mm closer to the edge of a cliff. The heat energy released in the structure you found turns into gaseous products very rapidly which must expand. That my doggie lover, is an explosion. Wrap some tightly bound metal around this compound (that turns to gas very readily creating enormous pressures) any you got fragments of the metal shearing into millions of pieces and you tear a lot of people to shreds. Quite a horrible thing.

(CH2)6N4 + 4HNO3 → (CH2-N-NO2)3 + 3HCHO + NH4+ + NO3-

The reaction above taken from your site, is just the sythesis of said explosive. The first compound right after the--->

This reaction looks to me to be exergonic on its own. So you actually use no energy making the stuff, you give it off. So just making the stuff that is the explosive requires no energy at all, if fact it gives off energy. Thanks for the information.

[irishtrekker]

One of my favorite teachers in the world taugh me physics for two years in high school. He was an amazing guy -- Vietnam vet, avid scuba diver, smart as hell but completely genuine and able to connect with all of the freaks and geeks like me...I still think about him and wonder if he's enjoying retirement. Sorry, totally OT, but just wanted to let you know that I think good science teachers are just fantastic people.

Originally Posted by irishtrekker

One of my favorite teachers in the world taugh me physics for two years in high school. He was an amazing guy -- Vietnam vet, avid scuba diver, smart as hell but completely genuine and able to connect with all of the freaks and geeks like me...I still think about him and wonder if he's enjoying retirement. Sorry, totally OT, but just wanted to let you know that I think good science teachers are just fantastic people.

I wish I had a teacher like that.

Its just that the more you understand about the way the world apparently works, the more control you have over your own life. And really all kids want is to have a say in what they become and the way they live. Most are ready to get out of the house. So I attempt to arm them with an understanding so they can make their way. I think most human beings want to be in control of their lives, or at least want to know what they can and cannot control. That is very comforting for most people. Im tired of hearing about people getting pushed around because the have not the foggiest notion of how things work... socially or scientifically.
Education helps sets people free to do what they desire.

For those who like nice clean explainations, this is a great site:

http://www.howstuffworks.com/

Sorry to digress from Landis. I am done.

[SCUDSBROTHER]

These compounds have to be made.I understand about just watering a tree gets you various fruit etc.(because the sun is providing the energy,and the sun is free energy.)The sun doesn't make these explosives.Are you saying the chemicals used to make these explosives are energy rich compounds that the sun etc. helped make(or these substances occur naturally,and that's why we don't have to use a ton of energy to get a ton of energy..from a bomb.)

[whorstman]

Cycling analyst John Eustice thinks Floyd Landis' testosterone test could be a false positive. Landis' testosterone levels were low; just the ratio was off. Landis' cortisone shots or beer drinking could affect that. We should know the "B" sample result within a week, Eustice said on The Dan Patrick Show.

[timmgirvan]

Originally Posted by whorstman

Cycling analyst John Eustice thinks Floyd Landis' testosterone test could be a false positive. Landis' testosterone levels were low; just the ratio was off. Landis' cortisone shots or beer drinking could affect that. We should know the "B" sample result within a week, Eustice said on The Dan Patrick Show.

THIS IS A GREAT SIGN THAT HE'LL BE CLEARED! The explaination that the cortisone shots for pain contributed to the false positive.. hoping for that

[irishtrekker]

Originally Posted by timmgirvan

THIS IS A GREAT SIGN THAT HE'LL BE CLEARED! The explaination that the cortisone shots for pain contributed to the false positive.. hoping for that

I hope so, too! I have a difficult time believing Landis would so something so stupid when it would be blatantly clear that he'd get tested afterwards...fingers are crossed!

Originally Posted by SCUDSBROTHER

These compounds have to be made.I understand about just watering a tree gets you various fruit etc.(because the sun is providing the energy,and the sun is free energy.)The sun doesn't make these explosives.Are you saying the chemicals used to make these explosives are energy rich compounds that the sun etc. helped make(or these substances occur naturally,and that's why we don't have to use a ton of energy to get a ton of energy..from a bomb.)

Every atom in your body has the potential of releasing an enormous amount of energy. Every atom in the universe does. When the universe first formed there was a certain amount of total energy. It remains the same.

The only problem is how do we release this energy within the atom. Its there... "naturally" from the beginning of the universe... actually a little after, when it was cool enough for these atoms to actually form.

Now for compounds ... atoms that are, we will say, stuck (bonded) together.
Bonds are basically energy harnessed in electrons of the compound. Electrons make bonds possible. Electrons exist in compounds at a number of diff energy levels. These compounds were also created "naturally". Again the problem is releasing this bond energy. If we can make the compound a little less stable, by adding some atoms artificially, like the reaction given in the other post, we have essentially moved the boulder (the energy tied up in the chemical bonds) to the edge of the cliff. Just a little push now and bang...

If you need me to explain further I will. Gotta go now.

[brockguy]

I thought his comeback ride after that bad day in the mountains was just too good to be true, I had never seen something that extreme in the sport.. he looked dead and buried one day and was as fit as a flea the other.. I Like the man, its a good story but.. its really is a shame

Something smells bad.
Testosterone levels high COMPARED to another one of its forms.
Testosterone is made naturally... Maybe these dopers are way ahead of the curve but I dont get it for Bikers. Would have had to have been done way ahead of time. This is not over. There must be more or he is getting screwed. I will wait on this one. It does not make sense from what I have tried to understand about testosterone in this particular endurance sport.

Originally Posted by brockguy

I thought his comeback ride after that bad day in the mountains was just too good to be true, I had never seen something that extreme in the sport.. he looked dead and buried one day and was as fit as a flea the other.. I Like the man, its a good story but.. its really is a shame

i used to have a license to race back in the teenage days before i realized that most of the men in the game have no attraction to the ladies. then i just started to bike as a tourist. Cycling is all respiration, and it is the closest thing to horse racing as far as sports go. as a cyclist you know what it means "to ask your legs for a response" either there is one or there is not depending upon the lactic acid remaining in the legs form the last time you asked. the same can br transferred to a horse, they ask for a response in the lane, and either they get on or they don't. his trip tothe mountains was extra ordinary. in my mind i feel he injected himself. he didn't care. he wanted to win and did what he needed to do to win, cheat: just like barry "soon to be out on" bonds. for him to make up that much time in the mountains is not normal. i doubt if eddie mercx or bernard hinault himself could have achieved that.

Originally Posted by pgardn

Every atom in your body has the potential of releasing an enormous amount of energy. Every atom in the universe does. When the universe first formed there was a certain amount of total energy. It remains the same.

The only problem is how do we release this energy within the atom. Its there... "naturally" from the beginning of the universe... actually a little after, when it was cool enough for these atoms to actually form.

Now for compounds ... atoms that are, we will say, stuck (bonded) together.
Bonds are basically energy harnessed in electrons of the compound. Electrons make bonds possible. Electrons exist in compounds at a number of diff energy levels. These compounds were also created "naturally". Again the problem is releasing this bond energy. If we can make the compound a little less stable, by adding some atoms artificially, like the reaction given in the other post, we have essentially moved the boulder (the energy tied up in the chemical bonds) to the edge of the cliff. Just a little push now and bang...

If you need me to explain further I will. Gotta go now.

you keep talking about the universe like you know for CERTAIN how it was formed. according to the theologians scientist are merely the devil in diguise speaking heretically and in direct conflict with the various creation myths. They spew their arrogant theories about as though THEY ARE the creators
and where given mortal life to enlighten us all as to how things were done. hogwash !

all you create is a little self fulfilling theory of nothingness.

when was the universe first formed ? ,

something must have existed before it was formed in order to form it, NO ?
and in what "plane" did this "stuff" exist.
does the universe rest in another plane ? seperate from this stuff that created it ?
and from what was the first bits of matter created,
and where did these bits come from before it became matter.

I think its funny the way this generation of scietist talk, like they have a direct phone line with the CEO creator and have confirmed their weak minded little ideas with him.

the universe and the creation cannot be defined by what it is.
it can only be defined as what it IS NOT.

we are not capable of comprehending what it IS, all we can comprehend is what it is NOT.
if we could identify what it was we could make more.


this will never happen, ever.

[irishtrekker]

Originally Posted by Secretariat

I think its funny the way this generation of scientist talk, like they have a direct phone line with the CEO creator and have confirmed their weak minded little ideas with him.

Woah, first of all, that's a little out of left field in the context of this discussion, but...

No offense, but replace the word "scientist" with the word "creationists," and you could say the same thing.

I went to Catholic school through my freshman year in high school. Our science teachers always taught evolution, the big bang theory, etc. So there you go. I'm a Catholic who believes in evolution. No problem for me with that.

--Irish, hoping she didn't just ignite a powderkeg...

Originally Posted by Secretariat

you keep talking about the universe like you know for CERTAIN how it was formed. according to the theologians scientist are merely the devil in diguise speaking heretically and in direct conflict with the various creation myths. They spew their arrogant theories about as though THEY ARE the creators
and where given mortal life to enlighten us all as to how things were done. hogwash !

all you create is a little self fulfilling theory of nothingness.

when was the universe first formed ? ,

something must have existed before it was formed in order to form it, NO ?
and in what "plane" did this "stuff" exist.
does the universe rest in another plane ? seperate from this stuff that created it ?
and from what was the first bits of matter created,
and where did these bits come from before it became matter.

I think its funny the way this generation of scietist talk, like they have a direct phone line with the CEO creator and have confirmed their weak minded little ideas with him.

the universe and the creation cannot be defined by what it is.
it can only be defined as what it IS NOT.

we are not capable of comprehending what it IS, all we can comprehend is what it is NOT.
if we could identify what it was we could make more.


this will never happen, ever.

WTF are you talking about?
Go reread the posts and read what I said about where energy comes from...
Block you are totally foolish. Science is just a way humans have to try and understand the way the world appears to work. Ya got something better?

God-forbid if you go in for chemotherapy, please refuse it. Its all hogwash. Just have your wife do a "get well" dance around your hospital bed. All should be fine.


something must have existed before it was formed in order to form it, NO ?
and in what "plane" did this "stuff" exist.

WE DONT KNOW YOU BUBBLEHEAD. THATS WHAT I POSTED.

BUT WE DO HAVE A GOOD IDEA WHEN THE CURRENT UNIVERSE FORMED BY REMNANTS OF ENERGY GIVEN OFF BY VERY DISTANCE STARS.

And they say the US is way behind other countries in understanding what science is and is not. Exhibit A: Blockhead.

Blocky try this one on... Time.
If events never occur, it has no meaning. If we dont have any idea of events before the big bang, we can say nothing about time. Time is a HUMAN construct just like space is. It is a model we use for understanding the sequence of events. Without events, there is no such thing as time, it makes no sense. Try this one blocman... Space. If nothing exists, what the hell does space mean? Nothing. Space does not exist unless things exist. Again, SPACE is a human construct to try to make sense of the world.

God did not invent the IDEAS of space and time, we did. God Lord help this man.

[SCUDSBROTHER]

Originally Posted by pgardn

The conservation of energy is a powerful idea my good little dawg man. Here is the deal. Chemical bonds contain an enormous amount of energy. In fact the atom itself is held together by very powerful forces... thus breaking the atom, the atomic bomb, was quite a display. The bonding energy between the protons and neutrons of the atom is massive, getting it to come apart and to convert it into other forms of energy, heat, sound, and various forms of radiation, is a task we have sadly mastered. So quite simply, when the universe first cooled enough for atoms to actually be formed, that energy was trapped. We found a way to release it. The energy was already there when the universe first formec.
Now in explosives what you are basically doing is breaking chemical bonds that in most cases already exist. The energy is already there. All one is doing is taking chemical bond energy, and making it easier to turn into an enormous amount of heat energy very rapidly by tweaking a few bonds here and there and that does not require much energy. Kinda like pushing a big boulder on a frictionless surface 1 mm closer to the edge of a cliff. The heat energy released in the structure you found turns into gaseous products very rapidly which must expand. That my doggie lover, is an explosion. Wrap some tightly bound metal around this compound (that turns to gas very readily creating enormous pressures) any you got fragments of the metal shearing into millions of pieces and you tear a lot of people to shreds. Quite a horrible thing.

Yeah,you're getting a ton of energy released(when N2 GAS is formed.)To make these compounds that contain the Nitrogen,it doesn't seem like you are putting a lot of energy in(to make those,)but you sure get a ton of energy out of them.This is not supposed to be the way it works.Usually energy in,and energy out.What am I missing?

Originally Posted by SCUDSBROTHER

Yeah,you're getting a ton of energy released(when N2 GAS is formed.)To make these compounds that contain the Nitrogen,it doesn't seem like you are putting a lot of energy in(to make those,)but you sure get a ton of energy out of them.This is not supposed to be the way it works.Usually energy in,and energy out.What am I missing?

The energy is already in the compounds Scuds. When the universe first formed it started out with the same amount of total energy we have now.

I'll give an easier example. When a tree uses its leaves to photosythesize, all sorts of compounds can be made... including wood (basically cellulose, paper is made out of it). We would call that growth. The tree dies. We take the wood and release all that energy trapped from the sun. Combustion. We burn the wood. We are basically releasing trapped energy from the sun when we burn wood. Now the question is, where did the sun get the energy... When the universe first formed from the big bang. Where did that energy come from? who the hell knows.
So all those different atoms that formed when the universe first formed have that energy already trapped in it. Some is released in nuclear reactions within stars (suns) and some is released in a myriad of other reactions.

Oh yes. When I say released, I mean the energy is converted to a diff. form. As far as we know, energy is conserved. None is gained, none is lost, it just changes form. Like the tree example. Sun--->chemical bonds(wood)--->heat and light upon burning... energy just changes forms