Day that Shall Live in Infamy

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by MaTH716

The sad part is that this is the first place that I have seen any mention of it. Nothing on TV, radio or in the newspapers. But there is plenty of coverage of the Grammy nominations that came out yesterday. This country is so F'd up sometimes!

I'm an NPR dork and they had coverage on this event this morning.

One thing that they spoke of, was that the nurses could do nothing to help all the fallen due to the mass numbers so they ran about administering morphine to every fallen person labeling them with an M in lipstick so as not to overmedicate.

[azerica]

Even though the majority are probably gone by now, I would still like to say thank you for all you did....and this is the only place so far today I have heard this. Thank you for starting this thread...

[GenuineRisk]

It was mentioned on the radio station I listen to, and if ever there was a station more likely to be obsessed with the Grammys, it would be this one(Z100). But they brought it up. One of the DJs on the show is in his 70s and talked about sitting next to the radio with his parents, listening to FDR's famous speech.

In fact, here's a link to the "a date which will live in infamy" speech, including an audio link so you can hear it (plus some other audio links from that event):

http://historymatters.gmu.edu/d/5166/

[SCUDSBROTHER]

Originally Posted by Sightseek

I'm an NPR dork and they had coverage on this event this morning.

One thing that they spoke of, was that the nurses could do nothing to help all the fallen due to the mass numbers so they ran about administering morphine to every fallen person labeling them with an M in lipstick so as not to overmedicate.

For that,Batan,and the rape of the Phillipines etc.,we should of turned their island into glass.All those innocent guys still in that U.S.S. Arizona.......That country never paid what was due for their disgusting ways.

[GenuineRisk]

Originally Posted by SCUDSBROTHER

For that,Batan,and the rape of the Phillipines etc.,we should of turned their island into glass.All those innocent guys still in that U.S.S. Arizona.......That country never paid what was due for their disgusting ways.

Didn't we drop two rather large, destructive bombs on Japan, or am I thinking of another Hiroshima and Nagasaki? Didn't the radiation from those bombs continue to cause illness and death decades after the war ended?

How many of those people who died, do you think, were directly, or even indirectly, involved in the attacks on a US military base in 1941? Those people we burned to death were civilians. Here's a description of what many of them looked like:

<<They had no hair because their hair was burned, and at a glance you couldn't tell whether you were looking at them from the front or in back.... If there had been only one or two such people ... perhaps I would not have had such a strong impression. But wherever I walked I met these people.... Many of them died along the road.... They didn't look like people of this world.>>

And:
<<The river became not a stream of flowing water but rather a stream of drifting dead bodies. No matter how much I might exaggerate the stories of the burned people who died shrieking and of how the city of Hiroshima was burned to the ground, the facts would still be clearly more terrible.>>

I'm not defending Japan in WW2, God knows. In fact, I even understand why Truman made the decision to drop the bombs. But to say the Japanese didn't pay what was due? Jesus Christ. How bloodthirsty can a person get?

Here's a good link to Truman's decision to drop the bomb and the aftermath:

http://www.isreview.org/issues/13/Hi...Nagasaki.shtml

Sorry Scuds- I don't mean to sound harsh, but come on, really?

[Hickory Hill Hoff]

My Grandma visited the memorial in the early 70's, the oil from the USS Arizona still rises to the surface even today.

[ddthetide]

for those that get it, military channel is running some shows now but 6pm they start their evening coverage. history channel also doing some shows tonight.

i have 1 uncle that was an army air corp engineer on a PBY subhunter in the atlantic. another that was in an artillery crew, that went from normandy to the outskirts of berlin. they have not told any stories until recently.

Tidefans.com has a thread today under the football section, even has some guys in iraq now posting in the thread.

THANK YOU! to our servicemen and women past and present!

[Downthestretch55]

Question:
I was told by a high school history teacher that on Dec 6, 1941, the entire US Pacific fleet was assembled in one place for only the first and ever time.
Coincidentally, negotiations with Japanese diplomats in Washington DC had "broken down".
The carriers left port (Pearl Harbor) that day, and the following morning, we know what happened, though warnings from spotters we ignored.
So...Did FDR set it up to get the USA into WWII? Like, "here's your shot, Japan, have at it."

ps: My father was an officer that served in the South Pacific as an engineer (building landing fields). Two purple hearts, malaria, jungle rot, and nightmares for many many years after.
He was one of the greatest generation. I miss him every day. He also shared this question, and said the only thing that spared the US from defeat in the Pacific was the Panama Canal.

[azerica]

Ok...you want to hear something that is really hard for me to believe? On another forum I go to, I opened a thread asking for a moment of thoughtful reflection for those at Pearl Harbor that day. A little girl, aged 10 she claims, replies to my thread..."Happy Pearl Harbor Day".

Do the schools not teach that it is not a holiday that we wish to be remembered as "happy"? I live in OK now, and wondered if I opened a thread to remember the Trail of Tears, would another child wish me happy trail of tears day without realizing it is a solemn topic? It is sad that children today [most of them] do not realize the history behind the holidays and events in their lives. Maybe the schools need to get back to basics.....

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Downthestretch55

Question:
I was told by a high school history teacher that on Dec 6, 1941, the entire US Pacific fleet was assembled in one place for only the first and ever time.
Coincidentally, negotiations with Japanese diplomats in Washington DC had "broken down".
The carriers left port (Pearl Harbor) that day, and the following morning, we know what happened, though warnings from spotters we ignored.
So...Did FDR set it up to get the USA into WWII? Like, "here's your shot, Japan, have at it."

ps: My father was an officer that served in the South Pacific as an engineer (building landing fields). Two purple hearts, malaria, jungle rot, and nightmares for many many years after.
He was one of the greatest generation. I miss him every day. He also shared this question, and said the only thing that spared the US from defeat in the Pacific was the Panama Canal.

i bet you could also find people who think the lusitania was given up to get us into world war 1. of course the truth there is that the sinking didn't get us in to the war to end all wars. we didn't enter world war one until almost a year after the lusitania tragedy, when it was found that germany was trying to get mexico to invade the u.s. after our defeat by our neighbors to the south, they would reclaim texas, new mexico, etc.

i have a tremendously hard time believing that fdr would sacrifice so much to get us into the war, a war which many already wanted us in. also, keep in mind that we were no superpower. yes, we had some ships lost, but the fleet then in no way compares to now. actually most ships were salvaged and put back into action fairly quickly; the attack wasn't quite as devestating as initially thought. of course the loss of life was significant. and we hadn't had an attack on our own soil since the civil war. but for anyone to suggest that the commander in chief, for whatever reason, would sacrifice his own troops to get us in battle is ludicrous in the least.

[hi_im_god]

Originally Posted by Downthestretch55

Question:
I was told by a high school history teacher that on Dec 6, 1941, the entire US Pacific fleet was assembled in one place for only the first and ever time.
Coincidentally, negotiations with Japanese diplomats in Washington DC had "broken down".
The carriers left port (Pearl Harbor) that day, and the following morning, we know what happened, though warnings from spotters we ignored.
So...Did FDR set it up to get the USA into WWII? Like, "here's your shot, Japan, have at it."

ps: My father was an officer that served in the South Pacific as an engineer (building landing fields). Two purple hearts, malaria, jungle rot, and nightmares for many many years after.
He was one of the greatest generation. I miss him every day. He also shared this question, and said the only thing that spared the US from defeat in the Pacific was the Panama Canal.

"I was told by a high school history teacher"

i was told by someone who thought college kids too challanging

"the entire US Pacific fleet was assembled in one place for only the first and ever time."

leaving the west coast undefended.

"Coincidentally, negotiations with Japanese diplomats in Washington DC had "broken down"."

which is why we wouldn't want any ships on the west coast.

"The carriers left port (Pearl Harbor) that day"

after someone finally figured out san diego was vulnerable to the mexican coast guard.

"ps: My father was an officer that served in the South Pacific as an engineer (building landing fields). Two purple hearts, malaria, jungle rot, and nightmares for many many years after."

i'm throwing his corpse in the pot in case anyone challanges this delusion. go ahead.

i dare you.

[MaTH716]

Originally Posted by GenuineRisk

Didn't we drop two rather large, destructive bombs on Japan, or am I thinking of another Hiroshima and Nagasaki? Didn't the radiation from those bombs continue to cause illness and death decades after the war ended?

How many of those people who died, do you think, were directly, or even indirectly, involved in the attacks on a US military base in 1941? Those people we burned to death were civilians. Here's a description of what many of them looked like:

<<They had no hair because their hair was burned, and at a glance you couldn't tell whether you were looking at them from the front or in back.... If there had been only one or two such people ... perhaps I would not have had such a strong impression. But wherever I walked I met these people.... Many of them died along the road.... They didn't look like people of this world.>>

And:
<<The river became not a stream of flowing water but rather a stream of drifting dead bodies. No matter how much I might exaggerate the stories of the burned people who died shrieking and of how the city of Hiroshima was burned to the ground, the facts would still be clearly more terrible.>>

I'm not defending Japan in WW2, God knows. In fact, I even understand why Truman made the decision to drop the bombs. But to say the Japanese didn't pay what was due? Jesus Christ. How bloodthirsty can a person get?

Here's a good link to Truman's decision to drop the bomb and the aftermath:

http://www.isreview.org/issues/13/Hi...Nagasaki.shtml

Sorry Scuds- I don't mean to sound harsh, but come on, really?

HBO had a doucumentry on a few months ago. I believed it was called Black Rain (I could be wrong but it was somthing Rain). They interviewed people that lived through the bombings and they described what happened and what they saw. There were also amazing (mostly disturbing) photos of the bomb and the damage that it did to the people and the land. After watching that show, no one will ever casually say "let's just drop the bomb on them".

[SCUDSBROTHER]

Originally Posted by GenuineRisk

Didn't we drop two rather large, destructive bombs on Japan, or am I thinking of another Hiroshima and Nagasaki? Didn't the radiation from those bombs continue to cause illness and death decades after the war ended?

How many of those people who died, do you think, were directly, or even indirectly, involved in the attacks on a US military base in 1941? Those people we burned to death were civilians. Here's a description of what many of them looked like:

<<They had no hair because their hair was burned, and at a glance you couldn't tell whether you were looking at them from the front or in back.... If there had been only one or two such people ... perhaps I would not have had such a strong impression. But wherever I walked I met these people.... Many of them died along the road.... They didn't look like people of this world.>>

And:
<<The river became not a stream of flowing water but rather a stream of drifting dead bodies. No matter how much I might exaggerate the stories of the burned people who died shrieking and of how the city of Hiroshima was burned to the ground, the facts would still be clearly more terrible.>>

I'm not defending Japan in WW2, God knows. In fact, I even understand why Truman made the decision to drop the bombs. But to say the Japanese didn't pay what was due? Jesus Christ. How bloodthirsty can a person get?

Here's a good link to Truman's decision to drop the bomb and the aftermath:

http://www.isreview.org/issues/13/Hi...Nagasaki.shtml

Sorry Scuds- I don't mean to sound harsh, but come on, really?

No,lady,you come on.They were not innocent.They were very guilty of believing they were a master race,and their emperor was a God.That's the reason this all took place to begin with.The guys still in that USS Arizona are the real innocent dead ones(not people who supported the emperor of Japan.)If you attack an innocent country(how many did they attack...a lot) you better damn sure win.They lost,but they didn't get what was coming to them.Japanese soldiers who cut the heads off men during the Batan death march,got to live out their lives like they did nothing wrong .I've seen them interviewed.We should have told them that everybody had to leave Japan.Then,we should have made more bombs and turned their beloved island into a layer of glass.Then,we would see whether they were really sorry about Pearl Harbor.Nuclear bombs are awful,but these people who supported that emperor(all the way) deserved every bit of it.They were not innocent.Germany the same.To be honest,we have countries that push this same extreme ultra nationalism today.One of them is certainly Turkey(a potentially very dangerous country.)They use the word for "race" in their national anthem.

[GenuineRisk]

Originally Posted by SCUDSBROTHER

No,lady,you come on.They were not innocent.They were very guilty of believing they were a master race,and their emperor was a God.That's the reason this all took place to begin with.The guys still in that USS Arizona are the real innocent dead ones(not people who supported the emperor of Japan.)If you attack an innocent country(how many did they attack...a lot) you better damn sure win.They lost,but they didn't get what was coming to them.Japanese soldiers who cut the heads off men during the Batan death march,got to live out their lives like they did nothing wrong .I've seen them interviewed.We should have told them that everybody had to leave Japan.Then,we should have made more bombs and turned their beloved island into a layer of glass.Then,we would see whether they were really sorry about Pearl Harbor.Nuclear bombs are awful,but these people who supported that emperor(all the way) deserved every bit of it.They were not innocent.Germany the same.To be honest,we have countries that push this same extreme ultra nationalism today.One of them is certainly Turkey(a potentially very dangerous country.)They use the word for "race" in their national anthem.

And Scuds, we have people here who believe Bush was personally put in office by Jesus Christ and God loves America more than any other nation. What's your point? That citizens get inflated views of their homelands? Well, duh.

And where's your proof that every single person burned to death by those bombs supported the war? Did the babies? Did the four-year-olds? How about the five-year-olds? To say we killed absolutely no innocents is not only ridiculous, it smacks of the same irrational nationalism that you accuse other nations of. Are you saying those babies and small children deserved to burn up in an atomic blast? Is that what you're saying? Yes or no, please.

We fought back after being attacked and we fought Japan until they surrendered. Once they did, we stopped attacking and helped them rebuild. Because that's what you do in war, if you're fighting it honorably. Anything else is just revenge. Continuing to punish a nation after it surrenders is the behavior of thugs. Thank goodness the leaders of our nation during WWII didn't think like you- today Japan is an ally, due in no small part to us helping it rebuild.

[SCUDSBROTHER]

Originally Posted by GenuineRisk

And Scuds, we have people here who believe Bush was personally put in office by Jesus Christ and God loves America more than any other nation. What's your point? That citizens get inflated views of their homelands? Well, duh.

And where's your proof that every single person burned to death by those bombs supported the war? Did the babies? Did the four-year-olds? How about the five-year-olds? To say we killed absolutely no innocents is not only ridiculous, it smacks of the same irrational nationalism that you accuse other nations of. Are you saying those babies and small children deserved to burn up in an atomic blast? Is that what you're saying? Yes or no, please.

We fought back after being attacked and we fought Japan until they surrendered. Once they did, we stopped attacking and helped them rebuild. Because that's what you do in war, if you're fighting it honorably. Anything else is just revenge. Continuing to punish a nation after it surrenders is the behavior of thugs. Thank goodness the leaders of our nation during WWII didn't think like you- today Japan is an ally, due in no small part to us helping it rebuild.

Oh,I think the problem here is you aren't aware just how ruthless these "people" acted.Lady,we got an awful lot of men in that coffin (about 1,000 innocent men.)This was not an honorably fought war(in any way.)During the BATAN Death March they hacked men to death,cut their heads off etc. Whatever they felt like doing to Americans,Brits,Aussies etc. They committed atrocities in every country they took.Raped Filipino women so much that they were mental vegetables after the war.Over a thousand men on this one ship were trapped in there when it sank.You think I should feel something for the friends,families and fellow citizens of the scum that did this to innocent people? No,I don't.They deserved those bombs.No more innocent Americans should of had to lose their lives fighting this scum.These bombs got them to surrender without any more innocent Americans dead.Yea,lady,those Japanese had to die for this war to end.I have zero sympathy for anybody living in Japan at that time......ZERO.THEY DESERVED 10 MORE BOMBS...ATLEAST!!! They will never pay the debt they owe to the countries they attacked.NEVER....THEY CAN NEVER MAKE UP FOR WHAT THEY DID.WAR isn't honorable.It is hell.Those bombs were just part of that hell,but so were the men they cut in two.What you don't get is that they deserved their ass-kickin' ,but those men in that ship didn't deserve what they got.Next time you start feeling soft for the Japanese go to that Arizona Memorial,and put your sympathy in the place it really belongs.You disgust me.

[hi_im_god]

Originally Posted by SCUDSBROTHER

Oh,I think the problem here is you aren't aware just how ruthless these "people" acted.Lady,we got an awful lot of men in that coffin (about 1,000 innocent men.)This was not an honorably fought war(in any way.)During the BATAN Death March they hacked men to death,cut their heads off etc. Whatever they felt like doing to Americans,Brits,Aussies etc. They committed atrocities in every country they took.Raped Filipino women so much that they were mental vegetables after the war.Over a thousand men on this one ship were trapped in there when it sank.You think I should feel something for the friends,families and fellow citizens of the scum that did this to innocent people? No,I don't.They deserved those bombs.No more innocent Americans should of had to lose their lives fighting this scum.These bombs got them to surrender without any more innocent Americans dead.Yea,lady,those Japanese had to die for this war to end.I have zero sympathy for anybody living in Japan at that time......ZERO.THEY DESERVED 10 MORE BOMBS...ATLEAST!!! They will never pay the debt they owe to the countries they attacked.NEVER....THEY CAN NEVER MAKE UP FOR WHAT THEY DID.WAR isn't honorable.It is hell.Those bombs were just part of that hell,but so were the men they cut in two.What you don't get is that they deserved their ass-kickin' ,but those men in that ship didn't deserve what they got.Next time you start feeling soft for the Japanese go to that Arizona Memorial,and put your sympathy in the place it really belongs.You disgust me.

once we've destroyed turkey and japan will you finally calm down?

[my miss storm cat]

Originally Posted by SCUDSBROTHER

.I have zero sympathy for anybody living in Japan at that time......ZERO.THEY DESERVED 10 MORE BOMBS...ATLEAST!!

I won't bore anyone with stories of going to see the memorial (several times) or any about my Dad (who served in WWII).....

I can understand your anger but it's your militancy that i find a bit scary.

Do you have any idea of what the estimates were like, the total numbers of victims?

Can you comprehend the number 200,000? TWO HUNDRED THOUSAND children, women, men, daughters, sons, parents, loved ones? Do you understand that that number doesn't include the misery of those who died later, who suffered from radiation burns, cancer, etc? That that number is merely an estimate (which goes as high as 210,000)?


http://www.tamilnation.org/images/hu...hiroshima1.gif

http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/RM1.US.HIROSHIMA2.JPG


I'm not saying you're a bad person here... just reminding you that innocent people on both sides suffered horrific and unimaginable deaths.

I'm curious as to your comment on the population of Turkey and also want to know if you address women in general as "lady" or if that was some kind of term of endearment for GR.

It seems a little demeaning to me... like some bad dialogue from a 50's film.

She's literate, educated and states her points well. I just find the term a bit crude.

[Mortimer]

Originally Posted by GenuineRisk

And Scuds, we have people here who believe Bush was personally put in office by Jesus Christ and God loves America more than any other nation. What's your point? That citizens get inflated views of their homelands? Well, duh.

And where's your proof that every single person burned to death by those bombs supported the war? Did the babies? Did the four-year-olds? How about the five-year-olds? To say we killed absolutely no innocents is not only ridiculous, it smacks of the same irrational nationalism that you accuse other nations of. Are you saying those babies and small children deserved to burn up in an atomic blast? Is that what you're saying? Yes or no, please.

We fought back after being attacked and we fought Japan until they surrendered. Once they did, we stopped attacking and helped them rebuild. Because that's what you do in war, if you're fighting it honorably. Anything else is just revenge. Continuing to punish a nation after it surrenders is the behavior of thugs. Thank goodness the leaders of our nation during WWII didn't think like you- today Japan is an ally, due in no small part to us helping it rebuild.

I love you.





An I don't think you're PP.

[SCUDSBROTHER]

For all those who feel sorry for the "innocent victims" killed by the bombs that ended the 2nd World War.None of them considered you THEIR EQUAL.You would be considered sub-human by the same Japanese
you feel sorry sorry for.


"The major means of getting intelligence was to extract information by interrogating prisoners. Torture was an unavoidable necessity. Murdering and burying them follows naturally. You do it so you won't be found out. I believed and acted this way because I was convinced of what I was doing. We carried out our duty as instructed by our masters. We did it for the sake of our country. From our filial obligation to our ancestors. On the battlefield, we never really considered the Chinese humans. When you're winning, the losers look really miserable. We concluded that the Yamato [i.e. Japanese] race was superior."-A former Japanese Army officer who served in China, Uno Shintaro


NANJING MASSACRE:

"Women and children were not spared from the horrors of the massacres. Often, Japanese soldiers cut off the breasts, disemboweled them, or in the case of pregnant women, cut open the uterus and removed the fetus. Witnesses recall Japanese soldiers throwing babies into the air and catching them with their bayonets. Pregnant women were often the target of murder, as they would often be bayoneted in the belly, sometimes after rape.[21] Many women were first brutally raped then killed. The actual scene of this massacre is introduced in detail in the documentary film of the movie "The Battle of China".

http://news.yahoo.com/s/mcclatchy/20...XLygR7DDOs0NUE

"They would grab young babies from their mothers and bayonet them in the bottom," -survivor Nanjing Massacre


http://www.diaoyuislands.org/photo/1/behead.jpg
http://www.diaoyuislands.org/photo/1/killing2.jpg
http://www.diaoyuislands.org/photo/1/skeleton.jpg
http://www.diaoyuislands.org/photo/1/heads.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:BuriedAlive.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:N...sacreheads.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:LeonardGSiffleet.jpg

an Indian POW, Havildar Changdi Ram, testified that: "[on November 12, 1944] the Kempeitai beheaded [an Allied] pilot. I saw this from behind a tree and watched some of the Japanese cut flesh from his arms, legs, hips, buttocks and carry it off to their quarters... They cut it small pieces and fried it."

In some cases, flesh was cut from living people: another Indian POW, Lance Naik Hatam Ali (later a citizen of Pakistan), testified that in New Guinea:

"the Japanese started selecting prisoners and everyday one prisoner was taken out and killed and eaten by the soldiers. I personally saw this happen and about 100 prisoners were eaten at this place by the Japanese. The remainder of us were taken to another spot 50 miles [80 km] away where 10 prisoners died of sickness. At this place, the Japanese again started selecting prisoners to eat. Those selected were taken to a hut where their flesh was cut from their bodies while they were alive and they were thrown into a ditch where they later died."

So,those who say the 2 bombs dropped were a mistake would rather we had done what?Fought this scum some more,and had them cut another 1000 American Heads off....Screw you.You're wrong.