Tigers in trade talk with Marlins

Crown@club · #1 12-04-2007, 06:11 PM

Conflicting reports going on. Now another says the Chisox have offered Fields and others. I think they are trying to juice it to see if the Angels will bite

Cannon Shell · #2 12-04-2007, 06:19 PM

Though trading established stars for future ones is always risky, this deal may backfire for the Tigers. Caberera is a tremendous hitter but is getting fatter and fatter and lacks a position. Fat guys play less than non fat guys. Willis looks burned out. Though the jury is out on the 2 guys the Tigers are giving up, they are both top 15 prospects and are really young. However there are other players heading to FL that we dont know yet.

Scav · #3 12-04-2007, 06:26 PM

ESPNews reports on bottom line that the trade is agreed upon. Cabrera and Willis to Det, don't know the rest

GPK · #4 12-04-2007, 06:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Though trading established stars for future ones is always risky, this deal may backfire for the Tigers. Caberera is a tremendous hitter but is getting fatter and fatter and lacks a position. Fat guys play less than non fat guys. Willis looks burned out. Though the jury is out on the 2 guys the Tigers are giving up, they are both top 15 prospects and are really young. However there are other players heading to Detroit that we dont know yet.

Haven't played in a while, huh Chuck?

ok, that was too easy...

Cannon Shell · #5 12-04-2007, 06:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GPK

Haven't played in a while, huh Chuck?

ok, that was too easy...

Pulled up lame this spring

I've done enough....

GPK · #6 12-04-2007, 06:38 PM

Wasnt it David Wells that said he has never heard of any having "pulled fat"?

Hear about pulled muscles all the time..

IrishofNDMan · #7 12-04-2007, 06:53 PM

AWESOME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! MIGGY and D-TRAIN are TIGERS!!!!!!!!

Cannon Shell · #8 12-04-2007, 06:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IrishofNDMan

AWESOME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! MIGGY and D-TRAIN are TIGERS!!!!!!!!

Dude the dtrain went off the tracks....

SentToStud · #9 12-04-2007, 08:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Though trading established stars for future ones is always risky, this deal may backfire for the Tigers. Caberera is a tremendous hitter but is getting fatter and fatter and lacks a position. Fat guys play less than non fat guys. Willis looks burned out. Though the jury is out on the 2 guys the Tigers are giving up, they are both top 15 prospects and are really young. However there are other players heading to FL that we dont know yet.

Cabrera's down 15 pounds since the end of the season. He'll have a good or very good year next season wherever he plays. He's had next to nothing batting in fron/behind him. I imagine he'd be a tougher out batting between Sheffield and Guillen. He's not great or even good in the field. He'll probably wind up at first base someday.

I think Willis is still very good. In 6 week stretch, he lost games 3-0, 3-2, 3-2, 4-3 and 4-3. He also won his last four starts. Never misses a start.

Cannon Shell · #10 12-04-2007, 08:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SentToStud

Cabrera's down 15 pounds since the end of the season. He'll have a good or very good year next season wherever he plays. He's had next to nothing batting in fron/behind him. I imagine he'd be a tougher out batting between Sheffield and Guillen. He's not great or even good in the field. He'll probably wind up at first base someday.

I think Willis is still very good. In 6 week stretch, he lost games 3-0, 3-2, 3-2, 4-3 and 4-3. He also won his last four starts. Never misses a start.

Caberera is a very good hitter who should fit in well in Detroit's lineup, though he is moving up from AAAA to the majors

Willis was one thing last year. Consistent. He was pretty much either mediocre or bad. His home and away stats were very close to equal. He was slightly worse in the second half of the season but pitched his best game the last week of the season.
He gave up hits, lots of them. The league batted .300 off of him at home and .289 on the road. there is no pitcher in the history of baseball that the league hit .290 off of that could be considered good. He was brutal last year. I have not looked it up but his numbers have to be the worst in the league for a starter with more than 20 starts. His dropoff from 2005 when he was tremendous is startling.

During that 6 week stretch he also had back to back games where he didn't get out of the 4 inning without being pounded.

Though there is no concrete proof, the innings he pitched along with his pitching style must have injured his arm somewhat. Because he has gone from maybe the best pitcher in the league 2 years ago to maybe the worst. If I wasn't so tired I would try to find another fall from grace in baseball history that wasn't due to injury

whodey17 · #11 12-05-2007, 12:16 AM

What a freaking line-up. Granderson, Polaco, Mags, Sheff, Ordonez, Puge, and I am sure I am forgetting a couple of guys. Speed and power and avg: they have it all. I could care less about D-Train. If they get 10 wins out of him then fine. But with this line-up he could have an ERA over 5 and still win 15.

Cannon Shell · #12 12-05-2007, 11:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by whodey17

What a freaking line-up. Granderson, Polaco, Mags, Sheff, Ordonez, Puge, and I am sure I am forgetting a couple of guys. Speed and power and avg: they have it all. I could care less about D-Train. If they get 10 wins out of him then fine. But with this line-up he could have an ERA over 5 and still win 15.

This is a Yankees type move. Fail to address your real issue (pitching) and give up your whole system (between this trade and the one for Renteria). They have an imposing lineup but have 4 question marks in the rotation besides Verlander. Bonderman was not good, Rogers is a fossil, Robertson is a 5th starter at best and Willis was really bad last year in the NL, this is not going to be easier. They also are depending on guys coming off of career years (Mags, Granderson, Polonco) and old guys (Todd Jones, Sheffield, Mags knees, Pudge, Rogers). The lineup looks imposing on paper but if they dont get more pitching, they will have traded the future for a team that has a 2 year window.

The real issue may be the Marlins may have a payroll of les than 10 million next year. Why wont baseball force them to try to be competitive?

whodey17 · #13 12-05-2007, 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

This is a Yankees type move. Fail to address your real issue (pitching) and give up your whole system (between this trade and the one for Renteria). They have an imposing lineup but have 4 question marks in the rotation besides Verlander. Bonderman was not good, Rogers is a fossil, Robertson is a 5th starter at best and Willis was really bad last year in the NL, this is not going to be easier. They also are depending on guys coming off of career years (Mags, Granderson, Polonco) and old guys (Todd Jones, Sheffield, Mags knees, Pudge, Rogers). The lineup looks imposing on paper but if they dont get more pitching, they will have traded the future for a team that has a 2 year window.

The real issue may be the Marlins may have a payroll of les than 10 million next year. Why wont baseball force them to try to be competitive?

Agree 100% about the Tigers pitching and this being a "Yankee like move." I think baseball should get rid of the Marlins and Devil Rays. Fewer Teams, better quality of play.

IrishofNDMan · #14 12-05-2007, 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

This is a Yankees type move. Fail to address your real issue (pitching) and give up your whole system (between this trade and the one for Renteria). They have an imposing lineup but have 4 question marks in the rotation besides Verlander. Bonderman was not good, Rogers is a fossil, Robertson is a 5th starter at best and Willis was really bad last year in the NL, this is not going to be easier. They also are depending on guys coming off of career years (Mags, Granderson, Polonco) and old guys (Todd Jones, Sheffield, Mags knees, Pudge, Rogers). The lineup looks imposing on paper but if they dont get more pitching, they will have traded the future for a team that has a 2 year window.

The real issue may be the Marlins may have a payroll of les than 10 million next year. Why wont baseball force them to try to be competitive?

Starting pitching is not the issue, the bullpen however is a serious issue that they need to correct. I want to know why the hell they signed Todd Jones??? The guy is terrible!!!!!

Cannon Shell · #15 12-05-2007, 05:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by satan's twin

This trade will spur lots of hot stove trade talks and will generate winter ticket sales and interest among the Tiger fans. But ultimately, what price have the Tigers paid for this trading season's splash? They have mortgaged the future for a one season run. The line-up is a mirror of the Yankees plan. You put a bomber in every slot with no apparent weakness and hit yourself to the World Series. There is only one problem with this plan. It's that this never works out quite like they thought it would. The nine starters will never be in a hitting groove at the same time. Sheffield and Ordonez have had recent serious injuries that are more likely to happen as they are reaching the ends of their careers. Renteria and Cabrerra will be seeing a new league and may need a time or two through to adjust to the pitching. And players coming off of career years will not be as likely to accomplish the same the next time around. Having said all this, I believe the Tigers will put up big offensive numbers next year. But offense doesn't win world championships. Pitching and defense do. Pitching will never be as glamorous or as exciting as a three-run homer. It doesn't pack the ballparks year after year like a 'murderer's row line-up will'. But it does separate the winners from the pretenders. It's no wonder that when the Tigers are garnering the headlines and winning the publicity battle, the world champion Red Sox are the only team concerned with acquiring THE only stone cold lock who will bring them a consecutive championship, Johan Santana. Whether Boston signs him or not, they are on the right track. Santana is the prize EVERY team should be after.
Pudge Rodriguez has managed to avoid a crippling injury throughout his career, but with ten plus seasons behind the plate he's a foul ball or a home plate collision away from being on the shelf for a prolonged period of time. If he is lost for any period of time, the Tigers will find out just how mediocre that staff really is. The bullpen will really be crippled by the loss of Joel Zumaya. He was one of the best middle relief pitchers out there who could bridge the game between the starters and Jones. The Tigers' young starters had tended to be flame-throwers who start out fast and crap out in mid-season. Add to the mix the ancient Kenny Rogers and a very erratic Dontrelle Willis and the Tigers win nothing. Jim Leland looks like the crypt-keeper whose long-term plan for managing appears to extend to about November 1st of next year. If he wants to see a series winner before death then he better start encouraging Dombrowski and company to get him some help on the mound.

I concur