Yikes - ATR Live

[10 pnt move up]

Well if that is the standard on your show, that if an industry expert calls in on his own personal experience in an interview and says something negative you probably should have cut him off right away.

Does Sirus have the same standards for Sean Hannity and Howard Stern, though I understand your show is neither?

[Nascar1966]

I wonder if Biancone and Dutrow exchange cheating secrets in French. They are both a disgrace to this great game and need banned for life.

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by Nascar1966

I wonder if Biancone and Dutrow exchange cheating secrets in French. They are both a disgrace to this great game and need banned for life.

Dont you think there is a good old boy type feeling amongst most people in the industry that allows this to go on? Its almost like you have to keep the secret or chance getting black balled out of the sport, if thats what its called. Honestly anyone who wagers serious money on this sport, especially after hearing that should have their head examined.

[Scav]

Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up

Dont you think there is a good old boy type feeling amongst most people in the industry that allows this to go on? Its almost like you have to keep the secret or chance getting black balled out of the sport, if thats what its called. Honestly anyone who wagers serious money on this sport, especially after hearing that should have their head examined.

It is a very "don't ask, don't tell" industry. It is very good ole boy. But as history has taught us, good ole boy networks only last for so long until someone gets f'd and it all tumbles down quickly.

Why you are asking for even more aggressive journalism is beyond me. Steve just let that flow yesterday and didn't even really have to ask. If he asks a question, maybe it 'closes' Allday and he stops talking because he is realizing what he is doing. I don't know. But all I can say is that very statement will send this industry into turmoil. It is probably all over the backstretch today and who knows, maybe Dutrow will call in and try and defend himself. Whatever Allday may or may not have done in the past, it doesn't matter now, but what he did was talk about something that EVERYONE has walked on eggshells about for the fear of getting sued because all they had were statistical movements and assumptions. Allday has friggin proof of this and basically handed it to them on a silver platter. I CAN'T WAIT.

[Scav]

Wild Desert is entered as a stallion prospect in the up incoming Fasig-Tipton November select sale.

Hip Number: 184
Link: http://www.fasigtipton.com/catalogs/2007/1104/184.pdf

[ddthetide]

excellent show yesterday!

[justindew]

I admit that I am not an industry insider, but in my opinon, if allegations against Dutrow are proven true, and if Dutrow is allowed to train in the future, it proves beyond a doubt that the sport does not care about cleaning itself up.

However, in the end, the bettors are to blame. If we continue to bet horses in spite of this obvious lack of respect that we receive from the industry, we can't complain. At least that's how I see it.

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up

Dont you think there is a good old boy type feeling amongst most people in the industry that allows this to go on? Its almost like you have to keep the secret or chance getting black balled out of the sport, if thats what its called. Honestly anyone who wagers serious money on this sport, especially after hearing that should have their head examined.

What if you are still winning despite any supposed cheating? Why would you stop? Did people stop buying stocks after the Enron mess? Did people suddenly stop betting on basketball because a ref was caught fixing the games?

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

What if you are still winning despite any supposed cheating? Why would you stop? Did people stop buying stocks after the Enron mess? Did people suddenly stop betting on basketball because a ref was caught fixing the games?

yes. would say its a case of buyer beware though, no one should complain about cheating though at this point with the mounting evidence its a rampant issue.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up

Dont you think there is a good old boy type feeling amongst most people in the industry that allows this to go on? Its almost like you have to keep the secret or chance getting black balled out of the sport, if thats what its called. Honestly anyone who wagers serious money on this sport, especially after hearing that should have their head examined.

That is the biggest misconception that always gets brought up. If someone had PROOF that someone like Dutrow was doing something wrong don't ya think they would turn him in? There is the catch, the proof. Everyone saying that we know he is doing something or using the beyer figures of a horse he moved up isn't proof, it is conjecture. This good ol boys thing is a lot of bs. There are plenty of good ol boys who would love to see Dutrow or Frankel fry.

And football which gets more money bet on it than any other sport in our country is far more drug tainted and good ol boys infested than horseracing.

[ELA]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

That is the biggest misconception that always gets brought up. If someone had PROOF that someone like Dutrow was doing something wrong don't ya think they would turn him in? There is the catch, the proof. Everyone saying that we know he is doing something or using the beyer figures of a horse he moved up isn't proof, it is conjecture. This good ol boys thing is a lot of bs. There are plenty of good ol boys who would love to see Dutrow or Frankel fry.

And football which gets more money bet on it than any other sport in our country is far more drug tainted and good ol boys infested than horseracing.

Very well said, and I agree completely. I met Dr. Allday, for the the first time, about 20 years ago. He was still working in the harness business, and was working with Dr. Ken Seeber (who, ironically, gave up his vet practice and became a harness trainer -- training for Lou Guida).

Anyway, I listened to the show. I found it just as interesting as everyone else, thought provoking, wanting for more -- and of course asking "what's next". I think something very positive can come from this. However, I also think something very negative can come from this as well.

There is also some irony here. First, as mentioned, we all know there are two sides to every story. Obviously, in hearing this one side -- which might be slanted or biased to a some extent -- this is side that everyone so very much wants to be true. It reinforces what everyone has been saying and what they've "known" to be true for so very long. How much sour grapes and so on, nobody will ever know.

Be that as it may -- before Dr. Allday's comments, in the past, when he was Dutrow's vet, all the cheating that everyone says, knows, believes, etc. Dutrow did -- how many people believed that Dr. Allday wasn't involved? He took plenty of pot shots here, and at other BB's. He was talked about just as much as Dutrow. At one time, you couldn't talk about Dutrow without mentioning Dr. Allday. Now, people will listen to him as opposed to criticize him, because now they like what he is saying. I can understand why.

Now, we want to listen to him. People who had no idea what they were talking about commented before about Dr. Allday and his involvement with Dutrow, and his success -- yet it was always common knowledge to innumerable people in the industry that Dr. Allday wasn't known to pre-race horses, but was an expert in diagnostic work, and the work the products he's developed.

I want, just like everyone else, to have something come from this -- if it's true and the proof comes out. However, to me, after reading, hearing, etc. all of this -- it almost seems like a little redboarding to me.

Eric

[ELA]

Originally Posted by Cardus

What positives can come from this? What negatives?

I think that in situations like this, they often tend to take on a life of their own. On one hand, this can potentially be a catalyst for change, for progress, etc. It might be now and could be the start of something. Or it could be a wake up call, and start some sort of slow, perhaps "covert" process. Of course, this could only happen if, and only if, all of this is coupled with proof. Perhaps obtaining the proof becomes a journey, not just a destination.

On the other hand, I don't know what can happen, but I think it could be bad. It wouldn't be the first time. There is so much negativity in and around this business, and the media, the public, and our own industry does what it can to put much of that in the forefront. Unless someone, or something that happens, is going to advocate for the industry -- and not against a former friend, client, etc. -- then perhaps this can also spiral out of control. There could be a great deal of finger pointing, allegations, and more of the like. What could come from that? More vets coming forward? More accusations? Will that be hollow? Or will it have substance? If it's coupled with proof, great.

But what happened to Mario Sclafani and Braulio Baeza started with accusations. Sure, there was more to it, but it started from -- and I mean no offense to anyone here who knows the person, and I ask that nobody use his name -- a person who comments were made to, who lost some bets, etc. Sure, we all know there were political aspects to this, but there were two people at the end of all those negative reports, accusations, etc. One was a hard working guy, liked by his peers, people in the industry, and people on the racetrack. He wasn't a public figure. Mario Sclafani was butchered. The other -- Braulio Baeza, a Hall of Fame member, who everyone liked and respected. His reputation was damaged beyond repair.

But what are we really talking about here? Public perception is already low. It could get lower as a result of something like this. This could potentially cast a very long, wide and bad net. Of course I hope it does not, and only hope that if anything, good comes from this. I guess we'll soon see.

Eric

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Cardus

Why is public perception of racing low? I don't think it's because there is a widespread, general population perception that racing is conducted by "cheats," to use Allday's word about one trainer. It's people like us who are much more sensitive to issues like this that are troubled.

i don't think a lot of people think it's populated by cheats. just that there are cheaters out there, and hopefully they'll start cracking down.
savvy bettors use all info, whether the perception is that a trainer is a cheat or not, they'll use their money accordingly.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Cardus

Was what Allday said conjecture, or proof?

Sounds like he has proof to me.

[Zaf]

agree ,sounds like proof to me.

[Nascar1966]

Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up

Dont you think there is a good old boy type feeling amongst most people in the industry that allows this to go on? Its almost like you have to keep the secret or chance getting black balled out of the sport, if thats what its called. Honestly anyone who wagers serious money on this sport, especially after hearing that should have their head examined.

This is why im not crazy enough to wager the big bucks, crooks like Biancone and Dutrow make you wonder if it actually an even playing field for everyone.

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up

Well if that is the standard on your show, that if an industry expert calls in on his own personal experience in an interview and says something negative you probably should have cut him off right away.

Does Sirus have the same standards for Sean Hannity and Howard Stern, though I understand your show is neither?

Allday has been a contributor to the Show for a long time, and I had confidence in his judgement that nothing he was saying, or would say, was, or could be, actionable. And he is no dummy... It was in fact, largely his own expressed opinion and interpretation of what he knew went on regarding Wild Desert as opposed to specific 'charges' leveled at Dutrow.

I don't know Sirius' standards for their other programming. I know that we have been threatened with action twice in 2+ years, (Gertmanian was one and the other a guy that 'sells' racing memorabilia curiously acquired), and Sirius specifically has warned us to avoid enntanglements of that ilk...

[Bobby Fischer]

theres a fine line between informative/entertaining & personally damaging/slander

actually it's not so fine

good judgement prevailed

[wigmore]

Originally Posted by Kasept

Allday has been a contributor to the Show for a long time, and I had confidence in his judgement that nothing he was saying, or would say, was, or could be, actionable. And he is no dummy... It was in fact, largely his own expressed opinion and interpretation of what he knew went on regarding Wild Desert as opposed to specific 'charges' leveled at Dutrow.

I don't know Sirius' standards for their other programming. I know that we have been threatened with action twice in 2+ years, (Gertmanian was one and the other a guy that 'sells' racing memorabilia curiously acquired), and Sirius specifically has warned us to avoid enntanglements of that ilk...

wouldnt a simple disclaimer " the views expressed by guests and callers doesnt represent the views of Sirius or or its advertisers" or some such verbiage, prevent any harm to Sirius and allow you to fully explore the subject?

[docicu3]

Originally Posted by wigmore

wouldnt a simple disclaimer " the views expressed by guests and callers doesnt represent the views of Sirius or or its advertisers" or some such verbiage, prevent any harm to Sirius and allow you to fully explore the subject?

You say something like that and your candor goes out the window....it was pretty clear that Byk wasn't driving the discussion car yesterday. Allday called unannounced providing additional information about the facts surrounding Dutrow's recent suspensions. The rest of the info was provided by the good doc without a question posed.

It would however beg the question "Why now..." There must be an explanation for why this bomb went off on 11/2/07 for events in 2005??