So where are all the "Pletcher is God" disciples and NO BIZ is crap believers?

[declansharbor]

We all do know to take most turf beyers with a grain of salt, right?
Both progression and regression.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kr0kB_wt3Kc

Originally Posted by declansharbor

We all do know to take most turf beyers with a grain of salt, right?
Both progression and regression.

I couldn't agree more but the horse is not fast on dirt of turf. The arguments about his trip are ridiculous. He got a better trip than half the field, a weak BC Mile field at that.

The horse could improve at 4 but nothing in his 3yr old season makes me believe he is a fast horse. A solid stakes horse but nothing to write home about.

The hype around the horse is very puzzling.

[declansharbor]

Originally Posted by Benevolus

I couldn't agree more but the horse is not fast on dirt of turf. The arguments about his trip are ridiculous. He got a better trip than half the field, a weak BC Mile field at that.

The horse could improve at 4 but nothing in his 3yr old season makes me believe he is a fast horse. A solid stakes horse but nothing to write home about.

The hype around the horse is very puzzling.

I really don't see him being all that fast either. And you are correct in saying that this horse can improve moving forward into his 4 yr old campaign.
The horses he beat in his BC preps were no world beaters, it was just the impressive fashion in how he drew off down the stretch. He most certainly can make some noise in the turf division if he continues to take to the grass.

[Cannon Shell]

I cant understand the hating of the horse. To say that he did not run an excellent race in the mile is puzzling. He ran 4th and was only beaten 2 lengths despite a wide trip. He arguably ran as good as anyone in there and is the only runner who is still eligible to improve as a 4 year old. He may not be Miesque but he is a versitile horse who runs consistently on different surfaces and different distances. He is easily one of the top 6 or 7 three year olds this year from a good crop of about 18000 male foals. What's not to like?

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

I cant understand the hating of the horse. To say that he did not run an excellent race in the mile is puzzling. He ran 4th and was only beaten 2 lengths despite a wide trip. He arguably ran as good as anyone in there and is the only runner who is still eligible to improve as a 4 year old. He may not be Miesque but he is a versitile horse who runs consistently on different surfaces and different distances. He is easily one of the top 6 or 7 three year olds this year from a good crop of about 18000 male foals. What's not to like?

There is no hating of the horse. The fans just need a reality check. This horse was this years most overhyped horse by far. He might improve at 4 but he really hasn't improved that much since he was 2.

He seems to always have an excuse. Whether it was the crowd bothered him (hilarious) or he got a wide trip. Wow a wide trip in a turf mile race. Who would have thought it.

The knock on him in this race was he just flattened out and a horse like Excellent Art, who had a much harder trip, just blew by him.

Is he a nice horse? Sure, but he is nothing special. To say this horse had a good day and Pletcher a bad day (the topic of the thread) is very funny. The one guy wins the second biggest race of the day and the horse runs a fading 4th. Now who had the good day and who had the bad day?

Reality check for this horse please.

[NoLuvForPletch]

Originally Posted by Benevolus

There is no hating of the horse. The fans just need a reality check. This horse was this years most overhyped horse by far. He might improve at 4 but he really hasn't improved that much since he was 2.

He seems to always have an excuse. Whether it was the crowd bothered him (hilarious) or he got a wide trip. Wow a wide trip in a turf mile race. Who would have thought it.

The knock on him in this race was he just flattened out and a horse like Excellent Art, who had a much harder trip, just blew by him.

Is he a nice horse? Sure, but he is nothing special. To say this horse had a good day and Pletcher a bad day (the topic of the thread) is very funny. The one guy wins the second biggest race of the day and the horse runs a fading 4th. Now who had the good day and who had the bad day?

Reality check for this horse please.

Overhyped??? Lawyer Ron and Any Given Saturday got an awful lot of face time over the past few months. They weren't even in the picture when the Superfecta was completed.

[NTamm1215]

Originally Posted by NoLuvForPletch

Overhyped??? Lawyer Ron and Any Given Saturday got an awful lot of face time over the past few months. They weren't even in the picture when the Superfecta was completed.

Of course, they both won meaningful races after April.

NT

[Bobby Fischer]

Nobiz didn't embarass himself. For a 9 or 10 furlong horse who is more of a great animal with versatility than a true top class turf animal, he really did well against some top class turf older horse milers.

Pletcher had at least English Channel and Honey Rider run big races (without looking over the charts). Lawyer Ron was a Grade 2 horse that couldn't finish a race before Pletcher pumped him up. Lawyer Ron had some of the best 4yo races this summer. It would have been a little funky to see Lawyer Ron win the classic but Pletcher actually made that horse into something you would have to consider as one of the five win contenders.
Any Given Saturday was naturally a 8.5 furlong horse. He happened to peak around the same time as Lawyer Ron this year and won an 8.5 and 9 furlong race in some of the best performances of the year for a 3yo horse. Again it would have been funky if this guy won the classic off a trainer move up , but he was one of the 5 contenders. They actually parlayed his Distorte Humor x AP Indy pedigree combined with the trainer/vet move-up for a hugely inflated sale! It was a Super year from Pletcher in that regard.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Benevolus

There is no hating of the horse. The fans just need a reality check. This horse was this years most overhyped horse by far. He might improve at 4 but he really hasn't improved that much since he was 2.

He seems to always have an excuse. Whether it was the crowd bothered him (hilarious) or he got a wide trip. Wow a wide trip in a turf mile race. Who would have thought it.

The knock on him in this race was he just flattened out and a horse like Excellent Art, who had a much harder trip, just blew by him.

Is he a nice horse? Sure, but he is nothing special. To say this horse had a good day and Pletcher a bad day (the topic of the thread) is very funny. The one guy wins the second biggest race of the day and the horse runs a fading 4th. Now who had the good day and who had the bad day?

Reality check for this horse please.

Where did Excellent Art have a tougher trip? He tucked in early, stayed covered up and made a late run while lugging in on his own accord. He finished one length ahead of NoBiz. I mean your standards are seemingly so high that only on or two horses are any good in a given year? I dont know anyone who was calling this horse a hall of fame horse or superstar. But he is a really nice horse who if he had an inside trip may very well be the BC mile winner.

Pletcher winning one race is not a good day as per the standards that he set, especially when he had 2 possibiles for horse of the year run way off the board. Sure it might be a great day for a smaller trainer but I'm sure he is not really that thrilled over it.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Cardus

Where was he "overhyped?" Even if you limit your media to this chat room only, he received support and had detractors. There are over 1,000 people affiliated with this board; were 5% of the people on his bandwagon?

I thought that he ran a solid race on Saturday. Flattened out a little bit, but he beat most of the field to the wire in his first attempt on a soft surface. Not bad, and I'd like to own a horse who can run reasonably well on dirt -- though he might not return to that surface next year, given Tagg's reason for transferring him to the turf -- and on turf. Not too many of those out there, right?

He is an Albert the Great that can run...kind of a freak of nature really

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

He is an Albert the Great that can run...kind of a freak of nature really

Well the Albert the Great connection and the purchasing of a certain amount of ad space in the bloodhorse probably had a little to do with the fact that the bloodhorse was in love with Nobiz for some reason. Haskin commenting that we haven't seen an american turf horse in years with the turn of foot of Nobiz was either the result of too much drinking or a wad of 100's stuffed in his pocket by three chimneys. LOL

As for Nobiz vs Excellent Art, the Louisville Courier comments were

"He's a good or fast ground horse," said Aidan O'Brien, who trains Excellent Art. "He was drawn outside (post 13), so he had to let the race unfold, but he was closing, closing, closing at the end."

Nobiz Like Shobiz made a strong bid at the top of the stretch but flattened out to finish fourth.

Excellent Art's trip cost him the win. The trip Nobiz had was better than the trip the 5th and 6th place finishers had and they nearly caught him


The fact is Nobiz might not have liked an off track and ran a decent race but the betting public making him 2nd choice and the amount of hype around the horse is insanity.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Benevolus

Well the Albert the Great connection and the purchasing of a certain amount of ad space in the bloodhorse probably had a little to do with the fact that the bloodhorse was in love with Nobiz for some reason. Haskin commenting that we haven't seen an american turf horse in years with the turn of foot of Nobiz was either the result of too much drinking or a wad of 100's stuffed in his pocket by three chimneys. LOL

As for Nobiz vs Excellent Art, the Louisville Courier comments were

"He's a good or fast ground horse," said Aidan O'Brien, who trains Excellent Art. "He was drawn outside (post 13), so he had to let the race unfold, but he was closing, closing, closing at the end."

Nobiz Like Shobiz made a strong bid at the top of the stretch but flattened out to finish fourth.

Excellent Art's trip cost him the win. The trip Nobiz had was better than the trip the 5th and 6th place finishers had and they nearly caught him


The fact is Nobiz might not have liked an off track and ran a decent race but the betting public making him 2nd choice and the amount of hype around the horse is insanity.

The Bloodhorse takes adds from all the major farms so I'm sure they aren't biased towards Three Chimney farm especially for that stallion. Saying that Steve Haskin would take money to write nice about a horse is just plain stupid. Haskin is not only a great writer especially as compared to most of what we get for writers in this sport but his reputation and integrity is impeccable.

[ArlJim78]

Originally Posted by Benevolus

The fact is Nobiz might not have liked an off track and ran a decent race but the betting public making him 2nd choice and the amount of hype around the horse is insanity.

if your whole point is that he was an underlay, ok, we get it. you could be right. there is no arguing that he ran a nice race finishing only 2 lengths back.
to imply that he is slow though is hard to understand. if NoBiz-like speed is the threshold below which all horses are slow, then 99.9% of all horses are slow.

somehow i am missing all the hype on this horse that you keep referring to.
to me an article or statement in bloodhorse does not constitute excessive hype.

[whodey17]

No Biz is a still a good horse. The horse finished 4th in the BC Mile. I would take that anyday of the week.

[Pedigree Ann]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

He is an Albert the Great that can run...kind of a freak of nature really

Nobiz Like Shobiz $1,544,730
Albertus Maximus $193,370
Royal Right $174,329
Dr. Einstein $135,538
My Great Love $116,270
Motion $114,355
Always Albert $96,060
Topside Trader $88,445
Great Bridge $76,975
Almagnus $76,930

Year Wins Earned
2005 16 $271,123
2006 75 $1,659,474
*Totals 91 $1,930,597
add for 2007 so far 35 winners from 59 starters, earnings of $2,334,223

His oldest foals are 4, far too early to dismiss a sire as useless. They don't sell particularly well for some reason, but it isn't because they can't run. He hasn't had super-sized crops - 67 in '03, 51 in '04, 61 in '05 (current 2yos) - and in general they aren't ready at 2, Nobiz being the exception. If I were a breed-to-race breeder, I'd consider him a bargain at $7,500.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Pedigree Ann

Nobiz Like Shobiz $1,544,730
Albertus Maximus $193,370
Royal Right $174,329
Dr. Einstein $135,538
My Great Love $116,270
Motion $114,355
Always Albert $96,060
Topside Trader $88,445
Great Bridge $76,975
Almagnus $76,930

Year Wins Earned
2005 16 $271,123
2006 75 $1,659,474
*Totals 91 $1,930,597
add for 2007 so far 35 winners from 59 starters, earnings of $2,334,223

His oldest foals are 4, far too early to dismiss a sire as useless. They don't sell particularly well for some reason, but it isn't because they can't run. He hasn't had super-sized crops - 67 in '03, 51 in '04, 61 in '05 (current 2yos) - and in general they aren't ready at 2, Nobiz being the exception. If I were a breed-to-race breeder, I'd consider him a bargain at $7,500.

Outside of Nobiz that is not exactly murders row. Dont forget we live in the day of 80k allowance races at places like presque isle...

[MisterB]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

I cant understand the hating of the horse. To say that he did not run an excellent race in the mile is puzzling. He ran 4th and was only beaten 2 lengths despite a wide trip. He arguably ran as good as anyone in there and is the only runner who is still eligible to improve as a 4 year old. He may not be Miesque but he is a versitile horse who runs consistently on different surfaces and different distances. He is easily one of the top 6 or 7 three year olds this year from a good crop of about 18000 male foals. What's not to like?

Is it safe to attack JV then??? He isn't that good on the turf, he has bucked shins.

[Kasept]

It's funny how publicity or public expectations of a horse can skew your own opinion.. Personally, I didn't care for the dirt incantation of Nobiz Like Shobiz at all during the Derby Trail, but have come to really like him now. I thought he ran very credibly Saturday and as mentioned elsewhere, talked with Tagg waiting for Velazquez to come back with the colt. He wasn't happy with the wide run and swing out on the turn by JV, but seemed please with the horse's effort and progress overall. He also speculated that Nobiz is going to continue to improve saying, "He's got a lot more to do yet."

[SentToStud]

Originally Posted by Kasept

It's funny how publicity or public expectations of a horse can skew your own opinion.. Personally, I didn't care for the dirt incantation of Nobiz Like Shobiz at all during the Derby Trail, but have come to really like him now. I thought he ran very credibly Saturday and as mentioned elsewhere, talked with Tagg waiting for Velazquez to come back with the colt. He wasn't happy with the wide run and swing out on the turn by JV, but seemed please with the horse's effort and propgress overall. He also speculated that Nobiz is going to continue to improve saying, "He's got a lot more to do yet."

It's also funny (maybe lamentable) that so much emphasis is put on one race but that's what the BC has done to the sport, for better or otherwise. If you ran the Mile, Turf, FM Turf and Distaff 10 times each, you'd probably see 3-5 different winners of those races.