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#1
09-28-2007, 08:01 AM
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#2
09-28-2007, 12:39 PM
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People said the same thing about Ghostzapper going into his final Breeders Cup prep. I'm actually dead serious, people thought Ghostzapper wasn't that much at all - and went on and on about how he beat "nothing" in his wins in the Vosburgh, Tom Fool, and Phillip Iselin.
Of course Ghostzapper beat NOTHING at all in this races - certainly nothing like an Invasor, Silver Train, or Badge of Silver - but quality of oppostion is often wildly overrated in horse racing anyway. With the right setup - a lesser horse often beats a superior horse. In both cases, with Ghostzapper going into his final BC prep at age 4, and Discreet Cat going into his final BC prep at age 4 - the big reputations were far more about talent and explosiveness than it was about accomplishment and durability. Does Discreet Cat have the talent and explosiveness of a Ghostzapper? Yes, he actually does. Clearly the two most naturally talented horses this decade. However, one had the great Bobby Frankel in his ultimate training prime of his career - and the other has been handled with legendary incompetence - while forced to make TWO trips to winter in Dubai, and he's had throat problems and other soundness issues. Discreet Cat has to prove he hasn't been 100% ruined. And it's possible he has. He has nothing else to prove beyond that. The people who don't think Discreet Cat was an elite race horse are probably the same people who foolishly argued tooth and nail that Ghostzapper "didn't have a prayer" against Pleasantly Perfect because "he has beat all nothing fields."
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#3
09-28-2007, 12:47 PM
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I agree with DrugS. Even though I'm not sure Discreet Cat is quite as good as DrugS thinks, he's essentially correct, the horse has overcome ridiculous handling, and physical issues, to run a few incredibly impressive races. Don't forget, Discreet Cat ran arguably faster in his 2YO debut than everyone's favorite supposed monster Lost in the Fog did later that day in winning the King's Bishop.
What's the big deal about races like the Vosburgh and Cigar Mile? You guys are kidding...right? These are huge races and should Discreet Cat run impressively in Sunday's Vosburgh, off a six month layoff, then that is saying a great deal. Ya know, before the BC ruined racing, the Vosburgh was the biggest sprint in the country ( and at a more preferable distance, for Discreet Cat, of seven furlongs ). His Cigar Mile was pretty terrific no matter how you cut it. I'm sorry, wasn't the second finisher the previous Met Mile and BC Sprint winner? Look, I realize it's hard to get excited by horses with six race careers spanning two years. And, sure, he needs to do more to place himself on some exalted pantheon, but that doesn't diminish from the enormous talent he has shown on the racetrack. No, he can't now be considered " great ", because he hasn't proven enough. But he sure has a big talent.
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#4
09-28-2007, 01:08 PM
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How long was the Vosburgh 7F? I always remembered it as 6 1/2, at least the last 10-15 years.
__________________
please use generalizations and non-truths when arguing your side, thank you
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#5
09-28-2007, 01:13 PM
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Not a very good memory Phil. It was seven furlongs for the first 63 runnings....from 1940 - 2002. In fact, when Ghostzapper won it in 2002 it was the only time it was ever run at 6 1/2 furlongs.
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#6
09-28-2007, 01:35 PM
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#7
09-28-2007, 01:39 PM
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Hell, I remember when My Juliet beat Bold Forbes in 1976.
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#8
09-28-2007, 01:51 PM
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People look at horses differently. DCat has run very fast and brilliantly but has really beat just two quality horses, Invasor and Silver Train, while winning one Grade 1 race. There have been many single Grade 1 winners, just few who ran as quick as he has. Based on his big wins only, yes, sure, he is very special. Then again, his two wins last fall were in 5 and 6 horse fields in which he beat just one high quality racehorse. I would love to see him succeed in a big field, win when denied his preferred running style or win giving significant weight. Hopefully, he'll stay sound enough and stay on the track long enough for some of those things to happen. But it doesn't look that way.
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#9
09-28-2007, 01:19 PM
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suddenly the subject is changed to Ghostzapper? because he is like Discreet Cat and the people who said things about him are the same people that are saying things about discreet Cat? these kinds of arguments by substitution seem weak to me.
If Discreet Cat were to crush the field in the BCC at Monmouth it would be another story, which if he were a good as he is being billed he would easily do. I prefer to pile on the accolades after the great performances are documented. The victory over two opponents in the Cigar was a very fast mile, but I don't think it quite puts one in the rarified air just yet.
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#10
09-28-2007, 03:27 PM
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Since his throat surgery, he's had zero races and only five workouts - all easy breezing workouts by all accounts. He has no foundation at all under him - and that race is four weeks away.
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#11
09-28-2007, 03:31 PM
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#12
09-28-2007, 03:49 PM
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I merely suggested that before I would make comparisions to Ghostzapper, I would want to see something like that. a single great performance over top horses that would place his talent at or above everything else over the past ten years.
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#13
09-28-2007, 04:30 PM
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It would be one thing if he had soft trips in those wins - but except for the Jerome, he didn't. They were authentic wins. On countless occasions, I've seen very moderate horses of little ability beat top class fields because they out-tripped them. I remember 12 years ago watching Wild Syn, who was less horse than a lot of claiming animals, easily beat Thunder Gulch and Tejano Run in the Blue Grass Stakes. TG and TR came back three weeks later to run 1st and 2nd in the Kentucky Derby - Wild Syn reverted back to his hideous form without the bias and setup he had in the Blue Grass. That was a race that I took a lot from when I first started betting.
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#14
09-29-2007, 10:42 AM
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If he has any class at all, he'll be close at the end. With no scratches, I make him 15-1 to win the race. I also make it even money he finishes out of the top three.
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#15
09-28-2007, 09:00 PM
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Mentioning her and the Breeders Cup Classic together is idiotic. Although - according to you - it's the equivalent of using the '95 Blue Grass Stakes as the Classic example of how supposed "top horses" can be beaten by wildly inferior ones who out-trip them? Did you happen to grow up in Kansas City by chance?
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#16
09-28-2007, 03:24 PM
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#17
09-28-2007, 03:35 PM
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#18
09-28-2007, 03:36 PM
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#19
09-28-2007, 04:12 PM
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He shipped there twice - both times from America while training here.
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#20
09-28-2007, 03:49 PM
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