Gorbachev: Iraq

[Downthestretch55]

Originally Posted by TheSpyder

Not much to disagree with. There's no way to "win" this thing, we can only lose worse with each day.

Spyder,
Thanks for taking the time to read his words. I don't disagree with him either, that's why I put it up.

[Storm Cadet]

I heard on one of the talk shows last night:

"You can win a political war, but you can't win a religious war"

They were talking about the problem in Palestine on how it has gone from political based differences to religious and it also relates to Iraqi right now!

We can't win...lets formulate a plan to get the heck out!

[Cannon Shell]

Mikhail Gorbachev served as the leader of the former Soviet Union from 1985 until its collapse in 1991.

Not exactly the guy we need advice from

[Storm Cadet]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Mikhail Gorbachev served as the leader of the former Soviet Union from 1985 until its collapse in 1991.

Not exactly the guy we need advice from

As Paul Harvey says:

And now the REST of the story:

He was the last leader of the Soviet Union, serving from 1985 until its collapse in 1991. His attempts at reform helped end the Cold War, and also ended the political supremacy of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union (CPSU) and dissolved the Soviet Union. He was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize in 1990.


Our boy GB2 (whom I voted for) is talking tough again to Russian leaders, has caused a huge split within the Republican Party and WILL NEVER win the Nobel Peace Prize.

[Downthestretch55]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Mikhail Gorbachev served as the leader of the former Soviet Union from 1985 until its collapse in 1991.

Not exactly the guy we need advice from

Cannon,
Did you read the article? If so, what exactly do you disagree with?

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Downthestretch55

Cannon,
Did you read the article? If so, what exactly do you disagree with?

I read the article and he says some interesting things. However little can be solved in real life in a 6 paragraph statement. The truth about what has gone on and is going on in Iraq, Afganistan, and other foreign places is not and will not be known by people like us. We just see what is fed to us by the media and gov't both of whom have agendas. I understand that I have no direct knowledge of what is going on or why so I try to keep an open mind about it. As for the Nobel peace prize...after they started giving it to terrorists and Jimmy Carter it dropped in status below the Lady Byng trophy.

[timmgirvan]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

I read the article and he says some interesting things. However little can be solved in real life in a 6 paragraph statement. The truth about what has gone on and is going on in Iraq, Afganistan, and other foreign places is not and will not be known by people like us. We just see what is fed to us by the media and gov't both of whom have agendas. I understand that I have no direct knowledge of what is going on or why so I try to keep an open mind about it. As for the Nobel peace prize...after they started giving it to terrorists and Jimmy Carter it dropped in status below the Lady Byng trophy.

Good one,Cannon!

Think long and hard before trying to solve any problem militarily. Talk of all other peaceful means as exhausted is often baseless: An alternative is always available. If, however, a great power makes the mistake of entangling itself in an armed conflict, it shouldn't make things worse by arrogantly refusing to heed warnings of dire consequences.



I think we could have stabilized this country.

The cost in life would be enormous, and we would only resort to this in the most dire circumstances. How were Japan and Germany brought to their knees? Two countries that had very strong "religious" beliefs, that would have been horrible messes if approached in a diplomatic mode when decisions were critical. In the end, when things got very tough, we restorted to massive widespread destruction. Wipe the slate clean. We would not resort to all out massacre. This is an alternative that is not discussed by Gorbachev who is a diplomat.

Again, one lesson from this situation is not necessarily to try and stay out. Use diplomacy. The lesson could be, go in to win. And in hindsight we did not do what was necessary... 100,000 troops for a country this size? We needed to take our time planning, and go in with a half a million. Plan what we would do in every city, at every important oil facility, city power plant, and other imp. infrastructure. But we were not willing to make that commitment or be that patient. We wanted "partners" in this percieved noble quest, and our allies would have never agreed to an enormous commitment. We wanted to win quickly with some semblance of an international blessing.

If the 1/2 million troops had accomplished the above, we might be in sorry diplomatic shape with the rest of the world. Or it is possible, that Iran would not be a problem and other there would be new books written about Nation Building. There are a world of possibilites that are very hard to predict. People constantly look back after events have been played out... this was no win, or if we had only done it like this... and none of these are necessarily correct. This is not like predicting where the moon will be in 2 years... we know exactly where it will be, the rules are simple.

The whole premise Gorby makes is based upon assumptions of how a "war" is approached. The more total control scenario is not mentioned in the article at all, it would be considered a diplomatic nightmare by Gorbachev. Nonetheless it is was a possible solution.

[Downthestretch55]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

I read the article and he says some interesting things. However little can be solved in real life in a 6 paragraph statement. The truth about what has gone on and is going on in Iraq, Afganistan, and other foreign places is not and will not be known by people like us. We just see what is fed to us by the media and gov't both of whom have agendas. I understand that I have no direct knowledge of what is going on or why so I try to keep an open mind about it. As for the Nobel peace prize...after they started giving it to terrorists and Jimmy Carter it dropped in status below the Lady Byng trophy.

Cannon Shell,
I agree with your statement, "We just see what is fed to us by the media and gov't both of whom have agendas."
The mainstream media feeds us Anna Nicole, Brittany, Paris...on and on.
Can we agree that there's lots of distraction going on?
The current administration has fed us these statements:
It's a slam dunk!

We'll be greeted as liberators

We'll be in and out of there in six months

It will be a cake walk

Iraq is central to the war on terror

We can do it with 150,000 troops

Saddam Hussein had connections to Osama bin Laden

This war is about ridding Saddam of weapons of mass destruction

This war is about bringing freedom and democracy to the Iraqi people

This war is about defating al Queda

MISSION ACCOMPLISHED!!!

BRING 'EM ON!!!!

This is a major turning point

That is a major turning point

The insurency is in it's final throes

We've turned a corner

When they stand up, we'll stand down

Absolutely we're winning

Freedom in Iraq is on the march

And let us not forget the First Fool's famous sixteen words:

The British government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa

------

Hmmm. I wonder if there are any lies being said.


And Pgardn,
Gorbachov only cited "hindsight".when referencing the Soviet debacle in Afghanistan, and the consequences are quite well known.
He presented a way forward for the United States regarding current circumstances. Believe whatever you wish.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Downthestretch55

Cannon Shell,
I agree with your statement, "We just see what is fed to us by the media and gov't both of whom have agendas."
The mainstream media feeds us Anna Nicole, Brittany, Paris...on and on.
Can we agree that there's lots of distraction going on?
The current administration has fed us these statements:
It's a slam dunk!

We'll be greeted as liberators

We'll be in and out of there in six months

It will be a cake walk

Iraq is central to the war on terror

We can do it with 150,000 troops

Saddam Hussein had connections to Osama bin Laden

This war is about ridding Saddam of weapons of mass destruction

This war is about bringing freedom and democracy to the Iraqi people

This war is about defating al Queda

MISSION ACCOMPLISHED!!!

BRING 'EM ON!!!!

This is a major turning point

That is a major turning point

The insurency is in it's final throes

We've turned a corner

When they stand up, we'll stand down

Absolutely we're winning

Freedom in Iraq is on the march

And let us not forget the First Fool's famous sixteen words:

The British government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa

------

Hmmm. I wonder if there are any lies being said.


And Pgardn,
Gorbachov only cited "hindsight".when referencing the Soviet debacle in Afghanistan, and the consequences are quite well known.
He presented a way forward for the United States regarding current circumstances. Believe whatever you wish.

As I stated before, the situation is far more complex than the information that is released for public consumption. To reduce the situation to sound bytes by either source of information is silly. As a matter of fact, in my not so educated opinion about the whole deal, our insistence on knowing the "truth" publically probably causes as much damage as the enemy.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Storm Cadet

I heard on one of the talk shows last night:

"You can win a political war, but you can't win a religious war"

They were talking about the problem in Palestine on how it has gone from political based differences to religious and it also relates to Iraqi right now!

We can't win...lets formulate a plan to get the heck out!

Religion as it relates to the Middle East and radical Islam is just a political party in sheep's clothes