Are poles adjusted in turf races when the rail is shifted?

[todko]

Originally Posted by pba1817

The theory of moving the rails out is making the runners run a longer distance is true. This is one reason as to why turf Beyer speed figures are very inaccurate, especially at tracks that do not run a large number of turf races.

In California, we have very few turf races each day, usually 1 or 2, sometimes 3 on weekend cards. One is usually a turf sprint, and the other is a route. The Beyer system is not very effective unless you have a large sample of races to compare. The sample is never high enough in my opinion when the rails are consistently being moved, and you are running one route race and one spring race in a day.

Ideally the gate is moved to compensate for the rails being out. That is, ideally.

I agree that PPs should say where the rail was.

Rails out increases the radius of the turn and narrows the course. Any time the radius of a turn is increased it helps speed. The more the radius is increased the more the turn approaches a straight (simple geometry).

[Travis Stone]

The gate is not moved to compensate for the rails, it's moved to give the horses run-up time to the timing beam.

Those Spa turns are so tight as is, rails plus a wide trip certainly cannot help. To me, the additional distance isn't as bad as the inner horses getting a momentum burst by slingshoting off the turn while wide horses lose that ground.

If you think of a race visually, how often does a horse look awesome 4 wide and then once he loses those few feet he quits?

[Storm Cadet]

BTW...whats your take on the topic of added ground with rails out?

Thanks in advance!

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by Storm Cadet

BTW...whats your take on the topic of added ground with rails out?

Thanks in advance!

It has occured to me, and I think it's a very interesting topic, but to be honest it doesn't really apply to my handicapping ( which may be a weakness ). Since I am far more interested in trips in general, and evaluate relative merits of horses ( in turf racing ) by the company they keep, I honestly don't concern myself with the minutia of minor distance changes in grass racing which seems only important in the exact science of figure making.

I would be interested in someone making a good case for why I am wrong about this, or what I am missing, and I mean this sincerely, but for now it seems almost trivial in regards to the bigger picture. I am not trying to minimalize this discussion, which I think is a really good one, I am just not sure it means a lot in the grander scheme of things since most horses are affected similarly by this situation.

[SentToStud]

MY understanding is this...

If you assume
1. Mile turf course
2. both straights are 1/4 mile and both turns are 1/4 mile

That's 2640 ft of turns in a 1 mile race. Radius of one turn = 2640 / 3.14 /2 = 420 ft

Move the rail out 20 feet, circ = 440(new radius) * 3.14 *2 = 2765 ft. So on a "20 ft out rail" they run 125 ft more on the turns than on a "Hedge rail" track. 125 ft is how far the starting gate is placed for the start of a '20 ft out' rail start past the start of a 'hedge rail' mile.

My understainding is:
1. Starting gate is moved.
2. Poles don't move.
3. Timers are not connected to poles, they're clipped to the rail.
4. They do move the timers.

1/8 mile is 660 ft. 125 feet is about 1/5 or so of 1/8 mile or about 2.5 seconds. That's roughly how much longer in a mile race timewise they run on the turns in a 20 ft out rail vs a hedge rail.

I got a C- in Chemistry so I could be very very wrong.

[Bobby Fischer]

very interesting stuff!

How much does changing the turn radius affect these horses, and how much advantage does it gives to inside horses.
thanks

[Storm Cadet]

Originally Posted by SentToStud

MY understanding is this...

If you assume
1. Mile turf course
2. both straights are 1/4 mile and both turns are 1/4 mile

That's 2640 ft of turns in a 1 mile race. Radius of one turn = 2640 / 3.14 /2 = 420 ft

Move the rail out 20 feet, circ = 440(new radius) * 3.14 *2 = 2765 ft. So on a "20 ft out rail" they run 125 ft more on the turns than on a "Hedge rail" track. 125 ft is how far the starting gate is placed for the start of a '20 ft out' rail start past the start of a 'hedge rail' mile.

My understainding is:
1. Starting gate is moved.
2. Poles don't move.
3. Timers are not connected to poles, they're clipped to the rail.
4. They do move the timers.

1/8 mile is 660 ft. 125 feet is about 1/5 or so of 1/8 mile or about 2.5 seconds. That's roughly how much longer in a mile race timewise they run on the turns in a 20 ft out rail vs a hedge rail.

I got a C- in Chemistry so I could be very very wrong.

Saratoga people told us 2 years ago that they DO NOT MOVE the starting gate in the added on distance. Gate is kept at the same point (mile race gate position is never moved) except for grass wear...and it's only a matter of 10-25 feet.

[SentToStud]

Originally Posted by Storm Cadet

Saratoga people told us 2 years ago that they DO NOT MOVE the starting gate in the added on distance. Gate is kept at the same point (mile race gate position is never moved) except for grass wear...and it's only a matter of 10-25 feet.

If they are moving the rails out and do not move the starting gate, I believe what you wrote only if they call it an "about" distance. Otherwise, I don't.

[Storm Cadet]

Originally Posted by SentToStud

If they are moving the rails out and do not move the starting gate, I believe what you wrote only if they call it an "about" distance. Otherwise, I don't.

What I said was the starting gate is moved for wear and tear...it's still carded as 1 mile, they don't calibrate the extra distance into where the gate is positioned in regards to the fencing out position...the movement could be 10-15 feet either way. I never said they carded it ABOUT distance.

[Dunbar]

First, thanks to all for the responses.

Originally Posted by SentToStud

MY understanding is this...

If you assume
1. Mile turf course
2. both straights are 1/4 mile and both turns are 1/4 mile

That's 2640 ft of turns in a 1 mile race. Radius of one turn = 2640 / 3.14 /2 = 420 ft

Move the rail out 20 feet, circ = 440(new radius) * 3.14 *2 = 2765 ft. So on a "20 ft out rail" they run 125 ft more on the turns than on a "Hedge rail" track. 125 ft is how far the starting gate is placed for the start of a '20 ft out' rail start past the start of a 'hedge rail' mile.

My understainding is:
1. Starting gate is moved.
2. Poles don't move.
3. Timers are not connected to poles, they're clipped to the rail.
4. They do move the timers.

1/8 mile is 660 ft. 125 feet is about 1/5 or so of 1/8 mile or about 2.5 seconds. That's roughly how much longer in a mile race timewise they run on the turns in a 20 ft out rail vs a hedge rail.

(emphasis added)

STS, you're saying they would/do move the starting gate enough to make up for the extra 125 feet of a 20-ft-rail-out, and that the fractional times are also correct because they move the timers, right?

--Dunbar

[mikekay]

While you're on this topic, can anyone explain why the stretch at the Aqueduct inner track is longer than the stretch on the main track? Seems impossible.

[BillW]

Originally Posted by mikekay

While you're on this topic, can anyone explain why the stretch at the Aqueduct inner track is longer than the stretch on the main track? Seems impossible.

If you're defining the stretch as where the track's outer and inner edges are both straight (not curved) they should be the same. The extra distance of the outer track is gained by the larger radius of the turns.

[BillW]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

I would be interested in someone making a good case for why I am wrong about this, or what I am missing, and I mean this sincerely, but for now it seems almost trivial in regards to the bigger picture. I am not trying to minimalize this discussion, which I think is a really good one, I am just not sure it means a lot in the grander scheme of things since most horses are affected similarly by this situation.

If the turf course has tight enough turns that centrifugal force saps significantly more energy to run on the rail than further out, this may appear as a fixed bias for that track configuration that would change as the rail was moved out. Dunno if this has any practical impact but would be an interesting study.