Kobe the most criticized...

[Cannon Shell]

The Lakers may or may not have won another championship if they stayed together but Shaq is pretty close to being done and Kobe has 4 or 5 more really good years left. Kobe has a huge ego, no doubt but so did Jordan and he seemed to do ok. Of course his teams went nowhere until they got him some players.

[KY_Sasquash]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

The Lakers may or may not have won another championship if they stayed together but Shaq is pretty close to being done and Kobe has 4 or 5 more really good years left. Kobe has a huge ego, no doubt but so did Jordan and he seemed to do ok. Of course his teams went nowhere until they got him some players.

Correct, except there's one major difference between Koba and Jordan-he actually passed the ball. He may have berated them in practice, but he knew how to push their buttons. Jordan had a good supporting cast and he made them a lot better than they were, especially Pippen, who somehow was voted a top 50 lifetime player, but struggled to maintain his own when Jordan was gone. I'd like to see the Lakers get Kobe a good supporting cast, not the likes of Kevin Garnett and other superstars, and see if he can produce a champoinship on his own b/c I dont think he can.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by KY_Sasquash

Correct, except there's one major difference between Koba and Jordan-he actually passed the ball. He may have berated them in practice, but he knew how to push their buttons. Jordan had a good supporting cast and he made them a lot better than they were, especially Pippen, who somehow was voted a top 50 lifetime player, but struggled to maintain his own when Jordan was gone. I'd like to see the Lakers get Kobe a good supporting cast, not the likes of Kevin Garnett and other superstars, and see if he can produce a champoinship on his own b/c I dont think he can.

Jordan had a very good supporting cast. Pippen is a hall of famer, Paxton and Kerr were great spot up shooters as was craig hodges. Cartwright, Rodman and Longley all filled the roles as rebounders and post defenders. Bj Armstrong was an effective point guard. Ron Harper was a great complimentary player even when he lost a step. Horace Grant was a very good post defender, garbage man and rebounder.
Pippen only "struggled" because he tried to fill MJ's shoes instead of being the players that he was.
No one player produces an NBA championship on his own. No one ever.

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Jordan had a very good supporting cast. Pippen is a hall of famer, Paxton and Kerr were great spot up shooters as was craig hodges. Cartwright, Rodman and Longley all filled the roles as rebounders and post defenders. Bj Armstrong was an effective point guard. Ron Harper was a great complimentary player even when he lost a step. Horace Grant was a very good post defender, garbage man and rebounder.
Pippen only "struggled" because he tried to fill MJ's shoes instead of being the players that he was.
No one player produces an NBA championship on his own. No one ever.

So they had a team with players who had roles. These players on their own were just not that talented. This is my point. There is no way I could be convinced Kobe could take this same team and let people settle into a role. It would have to be set up for him. All of these players on other teams were just not the same (Rodman was already crazy after he left Detroit so Detroit got the benefit of a bit of sanity). They were a team with a clear leader (even though Pippen does not admit it) and played like a team. Kobe asked for that, and so far, it has been a failure because he is not a leader. This is my major point. He wants to so badly be viewed as a better player than Jordan and he has no concept of what it is like to be the leader of a real team. Time will tell. Give him a PG as I said, and we will see. I think this is the main thing the Lakers are lacking. Their talent is not as bad as everyone makes it out to be. Lamar Odom is extremely talented but there has yet to be any sort of connection between them. When Mim returns, and Bynum is given a chance to develop, they will have every bit as talented players as the old Bull "Centers". Smush Parker is a two guard and he has no room to flower. He is clearly talented but does not have a clue what his role is besides get out of Kobe's way. Luke Walton is a very bright player who could fit perfectly in the right role but he is stymied as well, he has a role one game, and its gone the next. Kobe is still a young Jordan that can score at will. He works hard on his game, very hard. But he clearly wanted to be the man and he is running out of time now.

[GPK]

1986 Boston Celtics...that was the definition of a TEAM.

[Samarta]

Man this is a good debate going on here....Kobe Bryant is as much to blame for the collapse of the Lakers as anything.....Now I believe Jerry Buss decided to make him the franchise player and asked him did he want to keep Shaq and he said no. Even LA wan't big enough for both of them. But, say what you want about the big fella, but all he did was go to Miami and win a title. Name the last time an NBA team won a title without a legit "man in the middle," as the Bulls pa announcer used to say. Even the Bulls although they weren't superstars, had legit centers that filled that role...they weren't 25 or 30 feet away from the bucket looking to drain a 3 pointer. Cartwright, Longley, Wennington, Perdue....on their own, they were mediocre at best, but they understood their role....take up space, get a couple of rebounds a game, use all your fouls up, and let Dennis Rodman do all the work under the basket....before Rodman it was Grant. So where does that leave the Lakers? They need a big man....and as talented as I think he is, I don't think KG is the answer. Kobe's ego won't allow another player to float along the perimeter. They need a guy that can give them 20 and 10 night in and night out and do it from 5 to 8 feet away....

[GPK]

Originally Posted by Samarta

Man this is a good debate going on here....Kobe Bryant is as much to blame for the collapse of the Lakers as anything.....Now I believe Jerry Buss decided to make him the franchise player and asked him did he want to keep Shaq and he said no. Even LA wan't big enough for both of them. But, say what you want about the big fella, but all he did was go to Miami and win a title. Name the last time an NBA team won a title without a legit "man in the middle," as the Bulls pa announcer used to say. Even the Bulls although they weren't superstars, had legit centers that filled that role...they weren't 25 or 30 feet away from the bucket looking to drain a 3 pointer. Cartwright, Longley, Wennington, Perdue....on their own, they were mediocre at best, but they understood their role....take up space, get a couple of rebounds a game, use all your fouls up, and let Dennis Rodman do all the work under the basket....before Rodman it was Grant. So where does that leave the Lakers? They need a big man....and as talented as I think he is, I don't think KG is the answer. Kobe's ego won't allow another player to float along the perimeter. They need a guy that can give them 20 and 10 night in and night out and do it from 5 to 8 feet away....

Oh WOW...my man Sam bringing the name Bill Wennington into the picture...

talk about doing a "what ever happened to"

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

Chris Mihm? Are you kidding? Odom is okay, but he's no all star, Kobe needs another All Star and they will be just fine. Not to mention the fact the team was decimated by injuries this year. Not that it changes anything as the still aren't talented enough, but their team at the end of the season was a shadow of their team at the beginning. I think you are way off on a bunch of things here. Smush sucks, quite possibly the most inconsistent player in the league. Farmar will be okay, he's their starting point guard next year. I like Walton, when healthy he's okay. They need a player like Garnett. If they don't they'll be a 7 seed in the playoffs for the rest of Kobe's career.

So basically you are saying Mihm and Bynum cant fill the roll of a Will Perdue and Luke Longley type player? Who is kidding whom here. Farmar... thats a joke. All he does is run around and try to get out of Kobe's way. Yeps, he will run that team... for sure. Jason Kidd would be one of the only PG I think Kobe could play with. Imagine what would happen if D. Wade and Kobe were on the same team. Kobe could not handle that. A player that will be his equal.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by pgardn

Jason Kidd would be one of the only PG I think Kobe could play with. Imagine what would happen if D. Wade and Kobe were on the same team. Kobe could not handle that. A player that will be his equal.

They play the same position. Everyone is apparantly forgetting that Kobe HAS rings and that Shaq is not the only player that left. The Lakers would not be much better off with Shaq because heis always hurt and cant dominate anymore. Kobe is a great player. Watch the olympics. Then we will see how well he fits in with other great players.

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

They play the same position. Everyone is apparantly forgetting that Kobe HAS rings and that Shaq is not the only player that left. The Lakers would not be much better off with Shaq because heis always hurt and cant dominate anymore. Kobe is a great player. Watch the olympics. Then we will see how well he fits in with other great players.

Actually you are correct. The both play the 1 and the 2. And both convert to the 1 at the end of games.
Kobe has rings. And now for his "own" rings. His "own" team. The rings with Shaq really dont count for him.

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

Dude, 1. this isn't a science project where you can just plug players in where others worked. 2. Jordan was a once in a lifetime type player so comparing him, or those Bulls teams to anyone is stupid. Farmar was a rookie this year. He played better than Smush. I'm willing to give him a shot next year. You seem to think Kobe can't play with anyone, or his ego is too big. Bottomline, the guy wants to win. Give him some players that can help him and he'll win. They do not need a point guard, they need another viable scoring option, and Garnett is that. Odom is not, Chris Mihm is not, Bynum is not, Kwame is not.

1. I have no idea what this means
2. Then Kobe is stupid.

How the heck is Farmar going to be allowed to be a PG when he is always running away from Kobe trying to get out of his way? I seriously dont think Kobe can let any PG develop. This is one of my main points. Thats why I personally believe you have to bring in someone he trusts. Who would he trust to get the ball to him... Oh maybe Nash and Kidd. Thats about it. If a guy like Chris Paul had come on the Lakers, he would have experienced misery. A guy like Williams on Utah, he would not be on the floor enough or have the ball enough to gain confidence. I would never put a young promising PG with Kobe, ever.

[King Glorious]

True story from yesterday. My friend and I are roaming around and run into Kwame Brown and Jordan Farmer, at different times. Here are parts of both conversations. Hope the language doesn't get edited here.

W/Kwame Brown
My friend: Kwame, what happened this season with u guys?

Kwame: It was just crazy. Nobody really got along all year.

Me: So all the rumors are true and there is no chemistry on this team?

Kwame: Well, there is some but mostly with the scrubs like Rony, Sasha and those guys. They get along great but not the main players.

Me: What about Kobe? He's always talking all that "my guys" **** but then we always hear about him going off on people.

Kwame: Man **** Kobe. I want to kick his ass. Like one time, we were in the huddle at halftime in the hallway right outside the locker room. Everyone is in the huddle getting amped up for the second half. Kobe's punk ass wouldn't join in. Then somebody said "come get in Kobe". Kobe said "I'm not getting in there with ya'll punk bitches." Then Lamar was like "man, come on". Kobe said it again "I told ya'll I'm not getting in there with ya'll punk bitches." So we were just like "**** it, he's bitchin up again" and we kept on going. Then at the end we were like "1-2-3 defense" then when we broke and started running on the court, Kobe jumped right in the middle like he was right with us.

My friend: Are u serious?

Kwame: Yeah man. I wanted to beat the **** out of him but I know if I do that, my career is over.

So we talk about a bunch of other things then we have to leave. About 30 minutes later, we run into Jordan Farmar. Now I've talked with Jordan a few times cause he's my friend's godson. So I know I can joke with him a little.

Me: Damn, I thought Kenny Smith said ya'll were gone fishing.

Jordan: **** u.

Me: Nah. If I'm gonna **** a dude, it's not gonna be one that was in the D-League a month ago.

Jordan: In the D and still pulling more women than u.

Me: Is the whole team gonna be up here today?

Jordan: What u mean?

My friend: We just saw your boy Kwame a while ago.

Jordan: Man, that's not my boy. That's a weak ass bitch.

My friend: Damn, why u call him that?

Jordan: Dude is always hurt. He can't even make it through practices without complaining about something. Always. Stomach aches, toothaches, ankle, foot, shoulder. Always something. During games, we sit on the bench and take bets on when he's gonna get hurt. I always take the second quarter.

Me: I guess that's why Phil was saying that at some point Kwame has to suck it up and decide how much he really wants to play.

Jordan: Kwame doesn't want to play at all. He just wants to get money and get women.

Me: So u don't like him?

Jordan: I mean, dude is alright. I don't hate him but damn, get some heart.

My friend: He said that ya'll can't stand Kobe.

Jordan: U know what? Kwame is a weak ass bitch but he's telling the truth about Kobe. Don't nobody like that dude.