Biggest gap between the best horse in a crop and the rest

[King Glorious]

[quote=Pedigree Ann]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

I always felt that AP Indy was better but not much better than Bertrando. And I know how much better than Bertrando Arazi was.QUOTE]

ONLY at 2! Arazi was far more mature at 2 than any of the US 2yos, which is why he could handle them so easily at Churchill. But he didn't grow from 2 to 3, he had in effect peaked at 2, and when it came to the classics, he was out of his depth. While A P Indy, Bertrando, et. al. continued to grow and mature and improve as the year went on.

Can't agree. Everyone that I know that saw Arazi run in the Derby as a 3yo saw him do the same thing in that race that he did in the BC. He made the same move on the backstretch to come from last (or very close to it) to hit the front of the field. He was just undertrained because of his injuries and stupid planning. But he was still just as good.

[miraja2]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

But he was still just as good.

Actually I think this was Ann's exact point. He was still "just as good," while the others had improved

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by miraja2

Actually I think this was Ann's exact point. He was still "just as good," while the others had improved

Perhaps they had. But the question I have is did they improve enough to reach where Arazi was? I mean, next year, Smush Parker could improve for the Lakers. Still won't make him as good as Kobe Bryant though. I thought Arazi was miles better than anything in his class as a 2yo. Maybe they had cut that distance to a mile by the summer of their 3yo season.

[parsixfarms]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

Maybe they had cut that distance to a mile by the summer of their 3yo season.

And by the fall, he was miles behind at least three other members of his crop: Lure and Paradise Creek, who beat him in the Breeders' Cup Mile, and AP Indy who won the Breeders Cup Classic.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by parsixfarms

And by the fall, he was miles behind at least three other members of his crop: Lure and Paradise Creek, who beat him in the Breeders' Cup Mile, and AP Indy who won the Breeders Cup Classic.

As I said earlier, I thought we were mostly focosing on 3yo dirt routers. But concerning Arazi, by the fall, he was so messed up that it didn't matter anymore. Even at his best though, even if he was better than Lure and Paradise Creek, it wasn't by much. Those were two very good horses.

If we are going to go outside of the 3yo dirt routers, I would submit for inclusion the name of one Go for Wand.

Also, AP Indy's Classic was one of the worst, if not the worst edition of that race that I've seen. Running second was Pleasant Tap, a horse that never won a single two-turn stakes race in his career. He may have never won a two-turn race period, stakes or otherwise. Running third was Jolypha.......a French 3yo FILLY.....making her first start in this country and first start on dirt. That was a horrible, horrible race. Did I mention HORRIBLE?

[philcski]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

As I said earlier, I thought we were mostly focosing on 3yo dirt routers. But concerning Arazi, by the fall, he was so messed up that it didn't matter anymore. Even at his best though, even if he was better than Lure and Paradise Creek, it wasn't by much. Those were two very good horses.

If we are going to go outside of the 3yo dirt routers, I would submit for inclusion the name of one Go for Wand.

Also, AP Indy's Classic was one of the worst, if not the worst edition of that race that I've seen. Running second was Pleasant Tap, a horse that never won a single two-turn stakes race in his career. He may have never won a two-turn race period, stakes or otherwise. Running third was Jolypha.......a French 3yo FILLY.....making her first start in this country and first start on dirt. That was a horrible, horrible race. Did I mention HORRIBLE?

He won the JCGC and Suburban, but since they are one and a half turns I guess they don't technically count. He was a pretty damn good horse.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by philcski

He won the JCGC and Suburban, but since they are one and a half turns I guess they don't technically count. He was a pretty damn good horse.

He was a good horse. But consider that he had six stakes wins in his career:

JCGC and Suburban
Churchill Downs Hcp-7f
Malibu-7f
Commonwealth-7f
Sunny Slope-7f

In addition, he was second in the BC Sprint.

Lost EVERY single two-turn stakes race he ran in (Ky Derby, Lexington, Goodwood, SA Hcp, San Bernardino, BC Classic, Native Diver to name some). Point being that he excelled at one-turn races but was nowhere close to the same when it came to two-turns.

[parsixfarms]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

Also, AP Indy's Classic was one of the worst, if not the worst edition of that race that I've seen. Running second was Pleasant Tap, a horse that never won a single two-turn stakes race in his career. He may have never won a two-turn race period, stakes or otherwise. Running third was Jolypha.......a French 3yo FILLY.....making her first start in this country and first start on dirt. That was a horrible, horrible race. Did I mention HORRIBLE?

The field for that supposedly "horrible" race included Pleasant Tap, Thunder Rumble, Sultry Song, Strike the Gold, Defensive Play, Jolie's Halo, Marquetry and Twilight Agenda. You want really weak Classic fields, look at the one that Skip Away beat at Hollywood, or the Classic field defeated by Arcangues at Santa Anita in 1993 (where Bertrando also ran second).

I have unable to locate the chart for the 1991 Juvenile, but THAT was a weak field. If I remember correctly, Bertrando and Arazi were the only horses less than 10-1. Aside from Pine Bluff, I can't recall off the top of my head a single horse of consequence to emerge from that race.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by parsixfarms

The field for that supposedly "horrible" race included Pleasant Tap, Thunder Rumble, Sultry Song, Strike the Gold, Defensive Play, Jolie's Halo, Marquetry and Twilight Agenda. You want really weak Classic fields, look at the one that Skip Away beat at Hollywood, or the Classic field defeated by Arcangues at Santa Anita in 1993 (where Bertrando also ran second).

I have unable to locate the chart for the 1991 Juvenile, but THAT was a weak field. If I remember correctly, Bertrando and Arazi were the only horses less than 10-1. Aside from Pine Bluff, I can't recall off the top of my head a single horse of consequence to emerge from that race.

Upon looking back, that field wasn't as bad on paper as I seemed to remember it. But they all ran like crap. They were all (except for AP and Pleasant Tap) beaten by a 3yo filly making her first dirt start and U.S debut.

From that Juvenile, Dance Floor was 7/2 and Tri to Watch was 5/1. U mentioned Pine Bluff. Dance Floor ran 2nd in the Florida Derby, 3rd in the Travers and Kentucky Derby, and won the Fountain of Youth. Agincourt won the Dwyer. Big Sur won the Southwest. That's about it. No argument from me that it was a very weak race. That 1992 crop of 3yo's was pretty bad overall though, IMO.