For those owners that prefer juice

[Phalaris1913]

Originally Posted by Honu

I wish The Bloodhorse article would have also included the rest of the rulings that the board voted on and approved that day such as , trainers who are given suspensions will have their stalls taken away , they must remove all their signs, stall webbings, saddle towels and anything with their names or logos on it . So it will be much more difficult to just hand over the reins to the Asst. when the asst. will have to apply for their own stalls come up with their own insurance money and equipment , also they cant turn their stable over to a family member period.
So who are the real culprits in racing ? Who are the real villians Phalaris ? Its not the guys pushing the envelope with clenbuteral so instead of withdrawing 72 hours out they wait till 65 hours out ? Is that not trying to cheat in a sense when they know what the time frame is. Or is it the trainer who blocks his horses legs for the races and never gets found out ? Is it the guy that is " just treating his horses stomach ulcers " who's C02 level is thru the roof on most of his runners ?
All trainers know what the rules are , they know what the withdrawl times are also , and if they dont they should be fined for being stupid. If a trainer is on the up and up , they and their owners have nothing to worry about with the new rules in place and its that simple , the people pushing the limits are the one's who should be taking a long look at changing the way they do things.

Clenbuterol reportedly has an effective duration of six to eight hours. Withdrawal times are about elimination of traces of the drug, not that if you give a drug to a horse nearer the race you are going to get some kind of post-time "edge," just because its effects wore off some 57 hours prior to post time rather than 64 hours.

I suspect - though this is strictly IMHO - that this is a function of an industry which loves 21st century techonology but clings onto mid-20th century "a positive is a positive" mentality. They'd rather see clean tests than admit that there are a few detectable molecules of a drug given days before, and for that reason, thresholds have been strongly resisted, even for legal medication.

I found at least one abstract online dated 2001 that noted that newer, more sensitive, tests for clenbuterol could detect it at the 1 ng/ml level 11 days after administration. I've read other sources that note that it can be detected for even longer than that.

The idea of punishing people for using medications which we tell them they can use, just because our gee-whiz technology allows the detection of it days after it had any possible clinical effect on the horse, is so patently ridiculous I'm not even sure why it's in debate.

Horsemen are given lists of withdrawal times with a footnote that there is no guarantee. Researchers can work out averages and ranges in terms of how quickly horses will eliminate drugs, but because horses are living creatures and not perfect mathematical equations on paper, there are occasions when someone can follow the rules to the letter and get a positive. The fact that they followed the rules won't help them.

Cheating is using a substance which is not allowed at all. Cheating is administering a substance not allowed on race day within a period of time in which it could remotely still have some sort of pharmacologic effect on the horse at post time.

Those are the people we should be going after.

[Honu]

There are threshold limits for every drug that can be legally administered , like here in cali your horse can have a C02 level of 35 millomoles which is considered even higher than what a horse would normally have in their sysytem.
I have been an Asst. Trainer and with all the horses that have came thru our barn we have never had even a close call as far as withdrawl times when following the recomended stoppage time and believe me we have had a lot of horses in our barn.
To me its not all about performance enhancing its about following the rules whatever they might be and alltho you might think its no big deal to have a lil clenbuteral overage or a bute overage , the people who are coming up with these positives are pushing the envelope.
If you thought your horse wasnt able to metabloize a certain drug within the withdrawl time wouldnt the smart and safe thing to do would be pull your horse off the meds even further in advance or get the vet to draw a blood?
Mandella has trained horses for over 30 years and do you know how many positive tests for overages he has had , 2 for bute in 30 years , I dont subscribe to that baloney that "my horse metabolizes slower" its just a bunch of horseshit IMO.

[cloud_break]

Originally Posted by Honu

There are threshold limits for every drug that can be legally administered , like here in cali your horse can have a C02 level of 35 millomoles which is considered even higher than what a horse would normally have in their sysytem.
I have been an Asst. Trainer and with all the horses that have came thru our barn we have never had even a close call as far as withdrawl times when following the recomended stoppage time and believe me we have had a lot of horses in our barn.
To me its not all about performance enhancing its about following the rules whatever they might be and alltho you might think its no big deal to have a lil clenbuteral overage or a bute overage , the people who are coming up with these positives are pushing the envelope.
If you thought your horse wasnt able to metabloize a certain drug within the withdrawl time wouldnt the smart and safe thing to do would be pull your horse off the meds even further in advance or get the vet to draw a blood?
Mandella has trained horses for over 30 years and do you know how many positive tests for overages he has had , 2 for bute in 30 years , I dont subscribe to that baloney that "my horse metabolizes slower" its just a bunch of horseshit IMO.

Good for Mandella - his stock just went up further in my book. BTW, can you tell us what ever happened to Newsworthy, haven't seen him since the Baldwin.

[Honu]

Originally Posted by cloud_break

Good for Mandella - his stock just went up further in my book. BTW, can you tell us what ever happened to Newsworthy, haven't seen him since the Baldwin.

He turned him out for a bit and he is back at Hollywood right now , he wasnt out long so he wont be far from running.

[cloud_break]

Originally Posted by Honu

He turned him out for a bit and he is back at Hollywood right now , he wasnt out long so he wont be far from running.

Thanks for the update.

[parsixfarms]

Aren't they simply saying that "if you play with fire, you might get burned."

[Linny]

Most horses are training on meds or some sort. There are guys that push far too much and get caught, often repeatedly. I wouldn't call it "playing with fire" which implies illegal activity. It's pushing your luck and/or hoping you wont get caught.

I do agree that there must be uniform national standards for meds. If you are operating out of (say) Fair Hill you have the possibility of running in NY, NJ, MD, DE, VA, PA or WV and you must fully understand (as must your vet) the different rules and regulations for each venue. It's an invitation for disaster for even an honest trainer.

[SCUDSBROTHER]

Originally Posted by Honu

There are threshold limits for every drug that can be legally administered , like here in cali your horse can have a C02 level of 35 millomoles which is considered even higher than what a horse would normally have in their sysytem.
I have been an Asst. Trainer and with all the horses that have came thru our barn we have never had even a close call as far as withdrawl times when following the recomended stoppage time and believe me we have had a lot of horses in our barn.
To me its not all about performance enhancing its about following the rules whatever they might be and alltho you might think its no big deal to have a lil clenbuteral overage or a bute overage , the people who are coming up with these positives are pushing the envelope.
If you thought your horse wasnt able to metabloize a certain drug within the withdrawl time wouldnt the smart and safe thing to do would be pull your horse off the meds even further in advance or get the vet to draw a blood?
Mandella has trained horses for over 30 years and do you know how many positive tests for overages he has had , 2 for bute in 30 years , I dont subscribe to that baloney that "my horse metabolizes slower" its just a bunch of horseshit IMO.

So,tell me,when Richard's barn is a little cold (like is has been at times during the last few years.......by his own admission in interviews) does it get the people working for him a little down? I mean, you know it's an uphill battle running a clean barn versus the documented cheats.

[Honu]

Originally Posted by SCUDSBROTHER

So,tell me,when Richard's barn is a little cold (like is has been at times during the last few years.......by his own admission in interviews) does it get the people working for him a little down? I mean, you know it's an uphill battle running a clean barn versus the documented cheats.

yah man we do get down , we all work hard and really take an intrest in the horses , but we try and not dwell on the fact we know that some people are cheating. The one that pissed me off the worst was when Choctaw Nation beat Pleasantly Perfect in the San Diego handicap, I know that horse was shaked and it took bonus money out of my pocket.