Graded Earnings: Is there an alternative?

[whodey17]

Why do you people feel like Tiago should be in the field. He has won 1 race. Heck, Wilko won the BC Juve and look what he has done since. Just because a horse catches a weak field on his best day doesnt make him a credible horse come Derby day. I feel my system awards horses who show up and race and for consistancy. I do not like Teuf at all, but I do give the horse credit for throwing his hat in the ring several times this year and last. I just dont see how one can say a horse is a viable Derby contendar based on one race.

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by whodey17

Why do you people feel like Tiago should be in the field. He has won 1 race. Heck, Wilko won the BC Juve and look what he has done since. Just because a horse catches a weak field on his best day doesnt make him a credible horse come Derby day. I feel my system awards horses who show up and race and for consistancy. I do not like Teuf at all, but I do give the horse credit for throwing his hat in the ring several times this year and last. I just dont see how one can say a horse is a viable Derby contendar based on one race.

He won one G1 race. What horse that won't get in has won more than one graded stakes this year?

[whodey17]

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

He won one G1 race. What horse that won't get in has won more than one graded stakes this year?

It isnt a question of one race. I am looking at the entire body of work. A great example would be Curlin. He hasnt even won or raced in a Grade I event. He has looked good winning what he has. When it comes to the Derby you need to look at the horses entire body of work instead of just one race in Tiago's case.

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by whodey17

It isnt a question of one race. I am looking at the entire body of work. A great example would be Curlin. He hasnt even won or raced in a Grade I event. He has looked good winning what he has. When it comes to the Derby you need to look at the horses entire body of work instead of just one race in Tiago's case.

OK, give me a list of twenty horses that want to get into the Derby whose entire body of work is better than Tiago's.

[Thunder Gulch]

Field of 20 and everyone knows the rules. Every year it seems that someone develops late and becomes the bubble horse that people talk about, but the most deserving get in. I think graded earnings is as good as any system to fill up the field. Maybe you could find a weighting system to adjust graded earnings for distance and adjust down for 2yo money, but I wouldn't recommend any dramatic changes.

[hockey2315]

Originally Posted by whodey17

Why do you people feel like Tiago should be in the field. He has won 1 race. Heck, Wilko won the BC Juve and look what he has done since. Just because a horse catches a weak field on his best day doesnt make him a credible horse come Derby day. I feel my system awards horses who show up and race and for consistancy. I do not like Teuf at all, but I do give the horse credit for throwing his hat in the ring several times this year and last. I just dont see how one can say a horse is a viable Derby contendar based on one race.

So if Tiago doesn't belong in the Derby for winning a G1 with a 102 beyer, do King of the Roxy, Liquidity, or Sam P. belong? After all, he beat all of them. . .

[whodey17]

Originally Posted by hockey2315

So if Tiago doesn't belong in the Derby for winning a G1 with a 102 beyer, do King of the Roxy, Liquidity, or Sam P. belong? After all, he beat all of them. . .

If the horses you mentioned only won 1 Grade race, and raced and finished 7th in a Grade II then the answer would be no. Liquidity has raced in 3 Grade I's, one Grade II and one Grade III. King Of The Roxy has raced in 2 Grade I's and 3 Grade II's finishing 1st or 2nd in all of them but one where he finished 8th. Sam P has raced in 1 Grade I, 2 Grade II's and 1 Grade III never finishing worse than 5th. So YES, I do believe that Liquidity, King Of The Roxy and Sam P deserve it more than Tiago.

[hockey2315]

Originally Posted by whodey17

If the horses you mentioned only won 1 Grade race, and raced and finished 7th in a Grade II then the answer would be no. Liquidity has raced in 3 Grade I's, one Grade II and one Grade III. King Of The Roxy has raced in 2 Grade I's and 3 Grade II's finishing 1st or 2nd in all of them but one where he finished 8th. Sam P has raced in 1 Grade I, 2 Grade II's and 1 Grade III never finishing worse than 5th. So YES, I do believe that Liquidity, King Of The Roxy and Sam P deserve it more than Tiago.

So Sam P., who has only won a MSW and an ALW is more deserving because he raced in more graded stakes but didn't win or even really threaten in any of them?

[whodey17]

Originally Posted by hockey2315

So Sam P., who has only won a MSW and an ALW is more deserving because he raced in more graded stakes but didn't win or even really threaten in any of them?

Without a doubt yes. The way we have it now, a trainer can point their horse to one race and hope for the best. I do not feel that is good for racing. Tiago has only crossed the finish line once in first and the other races he hasnt even been a threat. I think you should give more consideration to horses who are showing up in these graded events. There should be more weight given to a horse who races more often in graded events than a horse getting lucky and winning just one race.

Look at our BC Juve winner. He decides to race is 2 preps. How is this good for racing. The same with Great Hunter and Quay. If we promote this sport around the Triple Crown and around the Breeders Cup then we need to do something to spice up the route to these two events. We need to make these horses earn their way into the sports biggest two days.

[pba1817]

I think the graded money is the fairest way to make the field. A slight change I would make would be making the rule strictly 3YO graded money, 2YO money should hold no relevance.

I feel too many early blooming horses over the years have taken advantage of the MUCH easier graded money at 2, never progressed at 3, and really had zero business taking a spot in the KY Derby from some promising later blooming 3YO's.

[hi_im_god]

if you want a system that will exclude the winner of a major prep race 4 weeks before the derby from a 20 horse field i think the only answer is no system. you need a czar.

i'll nominate you as soon as you name 20 more deserving horses.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by hi_im_god

if you want a system that will exclude the winner of a major prep race 4 weeks before the derby from a 20 horse field i think the only answer is no system. you need a czar.

i'll nominate you as soon as you name 20 more deserving horses.

I would think a Czar nominated by God would be tough to deny.

[Linny]

I read a post on another board about someone regretting Tiago keeping Chelokee out. What a crock. Both trainers did the same thing. The put all their eggs in one basket by using ONE GRADED START to attempt to earn their way in. Tiago was lucky in that his connections chose a pretty weak race. Chelokee had to face a proven G1 colt like Scat Daddy and could do no better than third. Maybe the should have gone to Cali or the Lane's End, they didn't.

I tend to think that a point system where graded earnings at 3 are worth more than those at 2 and where routes count for more than sprints. That said, it looks like this year, pretty much " the right 20" will line up.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Linny

I read a post on another board about someone regretting Tiago keeping Chelokee out. What a crock. Both trainers did the same thing. The put all their eggs in one basket by using ONE GRADED START to attempt to earn their way in. Tiago was lucky in that his connections chose a pretty weak race. Chelokee had to face a proven G1 colt like Scat Daddy and could do no better than third. Maybe the should have gone to Cali or the Lane's End, they didn't.

I tend to think that a point system where graded earnings at 3 are worth more than those at 2 and where routes count for more than sprints. That said, it looks like this year, pretty much " the right 20" will line up.

don't forget smarty jones--talk about putting your eggs in one basket. his ark derby was his ONLY graded race. so by some folks logic, he should have been excluded?! howl utterly preposterous!!

the rules are the same for everyone leading up to the derby. your horse doesn't get enough graded $--tough. he does? great. you hit the jackpot.

[whodey17]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

Exactly. I am curious as to who might be excluded and more deserving for a Derby slot with Tiago in. It looks as though Chelokee might get in, so I can't think of anyone else that should get in over one of the possible runners.

I cant answer that right now. I dont know what the top 20 are and who is actually going in the Derby. I will glady answer this question when I have more information.

[whodey17]

Originally Posted by hi_im_god

if you want a system that will exclude the winner of a major prep race 4 weeks before the derby from a 20 horse field i think the only answer is no system. you need a czar.

i'll nominate you as soon as you name 20 more deserving horses.

1) Street Sense
2) Great Hunter
3) Hard Spun
4) No Biz
5) Scat Daddy
6) Circular Quay
7) Curlin
8) Dominican
9) Stormello
10) Zanjero
11) Liquidity
12) Teuffelsburg
13) Any Given Saturday
14) Cowtown Cat
15) King Of The Roxy
16) Sam P
17) Officer Rocket
18) XChanger
19) Storm In May
20) Sightseeing

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by whodey17

1) Street Sense
2) Great Hunter
3) Hard Spun
4) No Biz
5) Scat Daddy
6) Circular Quay
7) Curlin
8) Dominican
9) Stormello
10) Zanjero
11) Liquidity
12) Teuffelsburg
13) Any Given Saturday
14) Cowtown Cat
15) King Of The Roxy
16) Sam P
17) Officer Rocket
18) XChanger
19) Storm In May
20) Sightseeing

You're not serious, right?

[Danzig]

sooo..

who was the last horse who was excluded due to earnings who turned out to be something later in the year, against the 'stars' of his crop?? i'm not talking older, i mean a three year old, who missed the derby, but came out and won the midsummer classics, or in the fall, and showed he was much the best?

[whodey17]

Originally Posted by brianwspencer

You're not serious, right?

Yes, what makes Tiago so much better than the ones you highlighted? Just because he won one race. Since when does one race make a good horse.

[Danzig]

why would a horse who places in a graded race deserve to be in the derby ahead of a horse who WINS a graded race??? if you PLACE in a couple, that means more than winning?? i think that's bs.