All charges being dropped

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by Grits

PASS

Somer, you diatribe is the same here as in the thread about Imus. I clearly stated Nifong should be disbarred. I also stated the woman was lying from day one.

Now, if that's throwing it all on your Black leaders--well hush my mouth and call me stupid.

I think not.

Done.

I think otherwise!
First off...I don't know if the girl was lying "from day one"...I don't know what she said and when she said it, I don't know if she was prompted by the DA or not. All I do know is that the evidence isn't there to support a rape charge and never was...I'm always cautious condemning someone like her cause I know how things like that can evolve...IF she made up a story then she can be charged...I don't think that has happened yet so I'll withhold remarks about what she did or didn't do! As I said...blame falls on her if she did lie and wasn't coerced. Your remarks would have been fine if you stopped with a comdemnation of the DA but you had to take a shot at Jackson and Sharpton...therein lies my problem!

[Payson Dave]

See Grits...what did i tell ya

[timmgirvan]

Originally Posted by somerfrost

I think otherwise!
First off...I don't know if the girl was lying "from day one"...I don't know what she said and when she said it, I don't know if she was prompted by the DA or not. All I do know is that the evidence isn't there to support a rape charge and never was...I'm always cautious condemning someone like her cause I know how things like that can evolve...IF she made up a story then she can be charged...I don't think that has happened yet so I'll withhold remarks about what she did or didn't do! As I said...blame falls on her if she did lie and wasn't coerced. Your remarks would have been fine if you stopped with a comdemnation of the DA but you had to take a shot at Jackson and Sharpton...therein lies my problem!

Hey Somer: can you step off the "Freedom Train" long enough to get Sharpton to apologize for the Brawley fiasco? We both know that these 2 men never miss a "photo op" or fail to insinuate themselves into a situation to bless us with their wisdom. They're nothing but shills....mouths for hire!

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by timmgirvan

Hey Somer: can you step off the "Freedom Train" long enough to get Sharpton to apologize for the Brawley fiasco? We both know that these 2 men never miss a "photo op" or fail to insinuate themselves into a situation to bless us with their wisdom. They're nothing but shills....mouths for hire!

Timm,
They are leaders of the black community, it's not necessary for you or me to like them but they deserve the respect accorded to leaders. I already spoke of Tawana and that mess...as I said, Al jumped too fast but it was believable.
Whenever accusations are treated as facts, innocent people suffer...I have steadfastly stood by that point all my life. Again...the problem here is the oldest trick in the book, the topic is about the charges brought against the Duke guys...instead of focusing on the DA who is clearly the "bad guy" here, folks quickly attack Jesse and Al. This is an old worn-out tactic, used against Dr King himself...I agree 100% with the original issue...that these boys were treated unjustly by a corrupt public figure...but I wonder, why do folks have to use this topic (and others) to attack black leaders?

[timmgirvan]

The Black people don't consider either of these 2 to speak for them! That was in the MSM just the other day. So, because of the miscues that follow these 2...you really can't call them leaders btw...A leader apologizes when he makes an error in judgement(Sharpton)

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by timmgirvan

The Black people don't consider either of these 2 to speak for them! That was in the MSM just the other day. So, because of the miscues that follow these 2...you really can't call them leaders btw...A leader apologizes when he makes an error in judgement(Sharpton)

Nobody "speaks for" the black community...it is made up of individuals with individual points of view but Jesse and Sharpton are leaders. Tell me, how many times does George Bush apologize when he's wrong? In a perfect world, leaders would be perfect...but how can you justify holding black leaders to a higher standard than white leaders? This topic wasn't about Jesse and Al, it was about an injustice involving the Duke guys...but folks sure want to focus on Jesse and Al and again, I wonder "aloud" why???

[timmgirvan]

Try focusing...This isn't about Bush. These Bozo's(my apologies to the Clown College) continually insert themselves in situations that don't warrant their intrusion. We don't need Jackson(or Carter) leading a delegation to anywhere to save the world. I was responding to your statements. Actually, I would hold them to a higher stand simply because of the Rev. in front of their names...but that's just me. Their actions decry their title.

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by timmgirvan

Try focusing...This isn't about Bush. These Bozo's(my apologies to the Clown College) continually insert themselves in situations that don't warrant their intrusion. We don't need Jackson(or Carter) leading a delegation to anywhere to save the world. I was responding to your statements. Actually, I would hold them to a higher stand simply because of the Rev. in front of their names...but that's just me. Their actions decry their title.

No, it's not about Bush...but neither is it about Jackson or Sharpton. Again, when you debate in academia, you would be penalized for jumping off topic...on the net, it's a way of life. Attacking people doesn't address issues...it's merely a smokescreen! I support Jackson and Sharpton and you don't...obviously there will be no agreement here. "Constantly inserting themselves...." Yeah, that's exactly what we heard in the 60's! "The folks around here know their place, it's you outsiders stirring up trouble..." And folks tell me how much things have changed!

[Payson Dave]

Originally Posted by somerfrost

Timm,
They are leaders of the black community, it's not necessary for you or me to like them but they deserve the respect accorded to leaders. I already spoke of Tawana and that mess...as I said, Al jumped too fast but it was believable.
Whenever accusations are treated as facts, innocent people suffer...I have steadfastly stood by that point all my life. Again...the problem here is the oldest trick in the book, the topic is about the charges brought against the Duke guys...instead of focusing on the DA who is clearly the "bad guy" here, folks quickly attack Jesse and Al. This is an old worn-out tactic, used against Dr King himself...I agree 100% with the original issue...that these boys were treated unjustly by a corrupt public figure...but I wonder, why do folks have to use this topic (and others) to attack black leaders?

As leaders (black or otherwise) it would not be unreasonable for them to comment in a contructive manner rather than a destructive manner...they seem to be very vocal in a very much onesided way...

[Mortimer]

Please don't let Professor P. Garden WindBag see this.






He always finds a way to drag Iranian Studies into a discussion.

[Grits]

Originally Posted by timmgirvan

Hey Somer: can you step off the "Freedom Train" long enough to get Sharpton to apologize for the Brawley fiasco? We both know that these 2 men never miss a "photo op" or fail to insinuate themselves into a situation to bless us with their wisdom. They're nothing but shills....mouths for hire!

This is exactly what I believe many think the Rev.Sharpton and the Rev.Jackson to be.

"You got the money, we got the time."

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by somerfrost

I think otherwise!
First off...I don't know if the girl was lying "from day one"...I don't know what she said and when she said it, I don't know if she was prompted by the DA or not. All I do know is that the evidence isn't there to support a rape charge and never was...I'm always cautious condemning someone like her cause I know how things like that can evolve...IF she made up a story then she can be charged...I don't think that has happened yet so I'll withhold remarks about what she did or didn't do! As I said...blame falls on her if she did lie and wasn't coerced. Your remarks would have been fine if you stopped with a comdemnation of the DA but you had to take a shot at Jackson and Sharpton...therein lies my problem!

No. I disagree wholeheartedly, because the way you're framing Sharpton and Jackson in this case paints them exactly how they want to be painted: Infallible.

You're holding them up in this case (which resembles some other cases they get involved with, even if only slightly) so that if she is telling the truth, they can be right by galavanting around talking about race when we should have been talking about strippers and rape from the get-go anyway. If they're wrong, which it certainly seems like they are, they just hush their mouths and never mention it again. No, they should be responsible for what they say in the very same way they want others to be responsible for what they say. It should be (dream world of course) that their threshold of accountability is at exactly the level they want to hold others to.

They were wrong. They race baited this situation, and they were wrong. Plain and simple. But you give them a free pass because of how you felt about them in the 60s? I don't mean to show my youthful ignorance, but times are a changing my friend.

Now I need to get out of this thread and stop agreeing with Grits before my head catches on fire out of the sheer irony.

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by brianwspencer

No. I disagree wholeheartedly, because the way you're framing Sharpton and Jackson in this case paints them exactly how they want to be painted: Infallible.

You're holding them up in this case (which resembles some other cases they get involved with, even if only slightly) so that if she is telling the truth, they can be right by galavanting around talking about race when we should have been talking about strippers and rape from the get-go anyway. If they're wrong, which it certainly seems like they are, they just hush their mouths and never mention it again. No, they should be responsible for what they say in the very same way they want others to be responsible for what they say. It should be (dream world of course) that their threshold of accountability is at exactly the level they want to hold others to.

They were wrong. They race baited this situation, and they were wrong. Plain and simple. But you give them a free pass because of how you felt about them in the 60s? I don't mean to show my youthful ignorance, but times are a changing my friend.

Now I need to get out of this thread and stop agreeing with Grits before my head catches on fire out of the sheer irony.

No Brian...we are saying that they are doing what they should be doing...calling attention to an issue that has great significance to their community. They are leaders and that is what leaders should do! Nobody is saying they don't make mistakes...as I said (repeatedly) I was very vocal when Sharpton screwed up the Brawley situation...innocent people suffer when accusations are treated as facts. And the times do change but people change a lot slower! We are the sum of our experiences...like them or not, we need outspoken leaders such as Jackson and Sharpton. There is no justification for the hell the Duke boys have gone through, but it was a corrupt WHITE official who caused their pain and the sins of our fathers who made it an issue!

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by somerfrost

No Brian...we are saying that they are doing what they should be doing...calling attention to an issue that has great significance to their community. They are leaders and that is what leaders should do! Nobody is saying they don't make mistakes...as I said (repeatedly) I was very vocal when Sharpton screwed up the Brawley situation...innocent people suffer when accusations are treated as facts. And the times do change but people change a lot slower! We are the sum of our experiences...like them or not, we need outspoken leaders such as Jackson and Sharpton. There is no justification for the hell the Duke boys have gone through, but it was a corrupt WHITE official who caused their pain and the sins of our fathers who made it an issue!

It was only of "great significance" to their community because she was Black. This should have been about a stripper's rape at a party, no more, no less.

There has been outrage aplenty for the DA, but deflecting the conversation solely towards him ignores the fact that Sharpton and those of his ilk race bait every chance they get....which is one of the most patently racist things one can do. This had nothing to do with her being Black. Her being Black did not cause the Duke guys to fake rape her. Rape should be of great significance to everyone of every color, but there was hardly any racial injustice involved in this case. And every time one of them frames what should be a horrific, yet colorless situation with us vs. them color fits, their credibility will further unravel.

Grits made a point of talking about the DA, because anyone following this case has been repulsed by his actions. But the fact remains that this was not a racial issue in the least, and because Sharpton and Jackson et al want to frame it as one...then let's do that, let's frame it as one. Now that it's been properly framed by these two "leaders" let's get back to them being wrong and not being held accountable for it. I don't suggest I am speaking for Grits or anyone else when I say that, but that's the very reason why this issue has to do with men like that. They **** on the floor, and now they're stepping in it and everybody's too ****ing afraid to call them out for it.

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by brianwspencer

It was only of "great significance" to their community because she was Black. This should have been about a stripper's rape at a party, no more, no less.

There has been outrage aplenty for the DA, but deflecting the conversation solely towards him ignores the fact that Sharpton and those of his ilk race bait every chance they get....which is one of the most patently racist things one can do. This had nothing to do with her being Black. Her being Black did not cause the Duke guys to fake rape her. Rape should be of great significance to everyone of every color, but there was hardly any racial injustice involved in this case. And every time one of them frames what should be a horrific, yet colorless situation with us vs. them color fits, their credibility will further unravel.

Grits made a point of talking about the DA, because anyone following this case has been repulsed by his actions. But the fact remains that this was not a racial issue in the least, and because Sharpton and Jackson et al want to frame it as one...then let's do that, let's frame it as one. Now that it's been properly framed by these two "leaders" let's get back to them being wrong and not being held accountable for it. I don't suggest I am speaking for Grits or anyone else when I say that, but that's the very reason why this issue has to do with men like that. They **** on the floor, and now they're stepping in it and everybody's too ****ing afraid to call them out for it.

Brian,
As much as you may want to ignore the simple truth, this WAS about race! It involved a poor black woman and wealthy (at least as reported, I don't know how wealthy their families are) white college boys. You can't ignore the past when wealthy white "boys" used black women any way they wanted...obviously race was front and center here! Why on earth would you expect black leaders not to be involved??? I agree 100% that these boys were victims...but not of Jesse Jackson, they were victims of a corrupt DA. The DA played the "race card" and he should suffer the consequences but to expect black leaders to remain silent in the face of this is ridiculous! They demanded justice...and, this time at least, justice is being served! Had this all been "swept under the rug", the DA would have probably hung these poor kids on manufactured "evidence" ...exactly the way black men and women were railroaded for countless years...that's the irony here!!

[Cajungator26]

Somer,

If equality is what is being seeked, then we MUST treat each and every case the EXACT same. It shouldn't have mattered what color her skin was... I don't give a shiat if she was white, black, green, purple, red... pick a color! This is what I don't understand... how we can expect equality in this country when people insist upon treating cases like this differently because of the color of someone's skin???

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by Cajungator26

Somer,

If equality is what is being seeked, then we MUST treat each and every case the EXACT same. It shouldn't have mattered what color her skin was... I don't give a shiat if she was white, black, green, purple, red... pick a color! This is what I don't understand... how we can expect equality in this country when people insist upon treating cases like this differently because of the color of someone's skin???

The case should have been treated the same regardless of her skin color or the boys...the fact is it was the DA who treated it differently! Since he needed the votes of blacks, he played the race card early and often. Black leaders have a responsibility to demand justice in such a case and that they did...so why blame them instead of the white man who was responsible??? You know, all this "we're all the same" sounds pretty hollow to a people who were beaten, tortured, murdered and enslaved not that long ago. Folks seem to want the black community to accept that there is a level playing field when clearly there is not! True equality won't occur in this culture...for women, racial minorities or gays until those with the power to change things start walking the walk instead of spouting a bunch of mindless crap....the reason this case hit a sore spot in the black community should be clear. When folks who are discriminated against start to see real change then color, sex and other stuff won't matter...but expecting folks to trust that they will be treated fairly when they never have been...well, that won't work!

[timmgirvan]

Originally Posted by somerfrost

Brian,
As much as you may want to ignore the simple truth, this WAS about race! It involved a poor black woman and wealthy (at least as reported, I don't know how wealthy their families are) white college boys. You can't ignore the past when wealthy white "boys" used black women any way they wanted...obviously race was front and center here! Why on earth would you expect black leaders not to be involved??? I agree 100% that these boys were victims...but not of Jesse Jackson, they were victims of a corrupt DA. The DA played the "race card" and he should suffer the consequences but to expect black leaders to remain silent in the face of this is ridiculous! They demanded justice...and, this time at least, justice is being served! Had this all been "swept under the rug", the DA would have probably hung these poor kids on manufactured "evidence" ...exactly the way black men and women were railroaded for countless years...that's the irony here!!

So this case and OJ's acquittal are retribution for countless years of injustice??? It figures!

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by timmgirvan

So this case and OJ's acquittal are retribution for countless years of injustice??? It figures!

That doesn't deserve a response...I won't say what I probably should.

[Grits]

Originally Posted by somerfrost

No Brian...we are saying that they are doing what they should be doing...calling attention to an issue that has great significance to their community. They are leaders and that is what leaders should do! Nobody is saying they don't make mistakes...as I said (repeatedly) I was very vocal when Sharpton screwed up the Brawley situation...innocent people suffer when accusations are treated as facts. And the times do change but people change a lot slower! We are the sum of our experiences...like them or not, we need outspoken leaders such as Jackson and Sharpton. There is no justification for the hell the Duke boys have gone through, but it was a corrupt WHITE official who caused their pain and the sins of our fathers who made it an issue!

No Somer, you're mistaken, without the lying of the accuser, NONE of this would have transpired to begin with.

DNA evidence of 3 men, whose semen was found in/on this woman, none of which were the three accused men, further lead the Attorney General's Office to realize the alleged victim was lying.

And you may be unaware, as many are on a national level, that this woman had done this very thing before. She had a history, and that was ignored. She was lying and she propelled, and put into place, the entire ghastly proceeding that cost a lot of people tremendous sums of money, not to mention the anguish.

Its interesting that you believe these men to be such fine leaders, but listening to members of the Heritage Foundation and other members of the black community as I did last night--they do not seem quite as convinced of their leadership skills.