Asmussen Suspension

[hectic_1978]

No big surprise that Assjuicen gets caught again. What is funny is that he is facing suspensions in both LA and NM, pretty much throws the "oops, it was a mix up" excuse out the window.

What is a point of a suspension!!!! He will just move his stable to another track. If you are going to suspend a trainer, it should be nationwide, it should also mean that you can't race horses under your assistants name etc etc. Asmussen will just laugh at this.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by eurobounce

What is a point of a suspension!!!! He will just move his stable to another track. If you are going to suspend a trainer, it should be nationwide, it should also mean that you can't race horses under your assistants name etc etc. Asmussen will just laugh at this.

I don't think he can move his stable to another track. If you are suspended in one state, the other states will also honor the supsension. It's the same with jockeys. If a jockey gets days in California, he can't ride in New York either.

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

I don't think he can move his stable to another track. If you are suspended in one state, the other states will also honor the supsension. It's the same with jockeys. If a jockey gets days in California, he can't ride in New York either.

Really, I did not know that. Thanks for the info.

[Thoroughbred Fan]

These guys are sharp. There is no way they would knowingly administer something that could be caught in a test. It was either a mistake or a false positive. They may be using something on their horses, but it isn't tested for yet.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by Thoroughbred Fan

These guys are sharp. There is no way they would knowingly administer something that could be caught in a test. It was either a mistake or a false positive. They may be using something on their horses, but it isn't tested for yet.

That's like saying that a multi-millionaire would never cheat on his taxes because he has too much to loose. It's a good argument but it's not true. People lie and cheat all the time even in situations where there is a good chance that they will get caught.
Much in the same way that cheaters are always getting more sophicticated, the testing is getting more sophisticated too. I would imagine that one of the ways guys get nailed is when a new, more sensitive testing method is used. A new test may be able to detect a drug that the old test could not detect.
One of Doug O'Neil's horses just came in above the legal level for bicarbonates. All of his horses are now going to have go to a detention barn. Do you think that he didn't do it?
By the way, when it comes to milkshaking it is usally not a huge secret as to who is doing it. Grooms are not great at keeping secrets. The grooms are at the barn and witness horses being milkshaked. It's not like they don't talk to their friends. You know the old expression that when there's smoke, there's usually fire. That is why every time I've heard rumors about a certain trainer milkshaking, it always turned out to be true. It's hard to keep secrets on the backstretch.

[Kasept]

Except that Ace is a tranquilizer that calms horses down... Not "juice" them up... And Mepivicaine is nothing but a local that is used whenever you do minor surgery on a horse like dental work. Both can linger in a horse's bloodstream at varying rates. If Asmussen, and I'm no fan of his, is doing "something" it ISN'T with the likes of Mepivicaine and Ace.

Following the Buff Bradley/Brass Hat situation tells you everything you need to know about these situations. Manufacturer guidelines said that the product would be in a horses system for up to 23 days. Buff gave it to Hat 28days out. The 3 vets that testified on the Bradley's behalf tested on a variety of horses and found that the detectable trace amounts could linger UP TO 44 DAYS in a horse's bloodstream... So I guess Buff is "juicing" Brass Hat in your mind too?

Whatever we may think "supertrainers" or "move up" trainers are doing, it's NOT the things that these suspensions (Asmussen, Pletcher, Dutrow) are citing...

Originally Posted by Kasept

Except that Ace is a tranquilizer that calms horses down... Not "juice" them up... And Mepivicaine is nothing but a local that is used whenever you do minor surgery on a horse like dental work. Both can linger in a horse's bloodstream at varying rates. If Asmussen, and I'm no fan of his, is doing "something" it ISN'T with the likes of Mepivicaine and Ace.

Following the Buff Bradley/Brass Hat situation tells you everything you need to know about these situations. Manufacturer guidelines said that the product would be in a horses system for up to 23 days. Buff gave it to Hat 28days out. The 3 vets that testified on the Bradley's behalf tested on a variety of horses and found that the detectable trace amounts could linger UP TO 44 DAYS in a horse's bloodstream... So I guess Buff is "juicing" Brass Hat in your mind too?

Whatever we may think "supertrainers" or "move up" trainers are doing, it's NOT the things that these suspensions (Asmussen, Pletcher, Dutrow) are citing...

This is the same exact substance(mepivicaine) that Pletcher is fighting a 45 day suspension for and that Dutrow got a suspension for. Its absurd to give him 6 months, ridiculous to say the least. Its a local anesthetic. Its used in dental work(which horses do have) and after giving a horse stitches. Todd is about the sharpest guy I know of in the game and Asmussen is right there next to him. Everybody with a brain knows that the "caine" family is the easiest drug family out there to test for. Its presence even in minute doses is detectable in testing. Several trainers fought against suspensions for cocaine in the 90's and won. It was contamination most likely caused by grooms who had been using. Everyone is aware of how sensitive "caine" drugs are and when you are talking about Pletcher, Asmussen, and Dutrow you are talking about three guys that I can assure you are extremely intelligent. I know two and have talked to the other and these guys are not idiots and would NEVER give a caine family member to their horses on purpose. Its also simply not something you would ever give a horse to "hop" him. Its absurd. Asmussens's case is most likely no different than Pletchers or Dutrows in that I would guess it was caused by stitches given to teh horse and having the substance linger in the system in small amounts. As far as Ace goes, everyone uses it. Its a tranq that is given often to horses. Again, it probably lingered past the number of days it usually leaves the system, and as Stev says, why the **** would you give a tranq to "hop" a horse, thats just insane.
Asmussen is getting the shaft here. And now like with the Pletcher and Dutrow postives we will be treated to nitwits crying "I told you he juices"!!! all over the internet and in the papers. Of course the folks who yell loudest and most often will be the folks who know as much about medication and training as I do about rocket science, not a whole lot.

Originally Posted by oracle80

This is the same exact substance(mepivicaine) that Pletcher is fighting a 45 day suspension for and that Dutrow got a suspension for. Its absurd to give him 6 months, ridiculous to say the least. Its a local anesthetic. Its used in dental work(which horses do have) and after giving a horse stitches. Todd is about the sharpest guy I know of in the game and Asmussen is right there next to him. Everybody with a brain knows that the "caine" family is the easiest drug family out there to test for. Its presence even in minute doses is detectable in testing. Several trainers fought against suspensions for cocaine in the 90's and won. It was contamination most likely caused by grooms who had been using. Everyone is aware of how sensitive "caine" drugs are and when you are talking about Pletcher, Asmussen, and Dutrow you are talking about three guys that I can assure you are extremely intelligent. I know two and have talked to the other and these guys are not idiots and would NEVER give a caine family member to their horses on purpose. Its also simply not something you would ever give a horse to "hop" him. Its absurd. Asmussens's case is most likely no different than Pletchers or Dutrows in that I would guess it was caused by stitches given to teh horse and having the substance linger in the system in small amounts. As far as Ace goes, everyone uses it. Its a tranq that is given often to horses. Again, it probably lingered past the number of days it usually leaves the system, and as Stev says, why the **** would you give a tranq to "hop" a horse, thats just insane.
Asmussen is getting the shaft here. And now like with the Pletcher and Dutrow postives we will be treated to nitwits crying "I told you he juices"!!! all over the internet and in the papers. Of course the folks who yell loudest and most often will be the folks who know as much about medication and training as I do about rocket science, not a whole lot.

I agree 100%.

[Gander]

So can he race at Saratoga this summer?

Originally Posted by Gander

So can he race at Saratoga this summer?

He will appeal it Tim. This is such nonsense that it makes my blood boil. There are about 50 guys out there training that I could guess with a high degree of certainty are using something and they rarely if ever get caught. When they do get caught they get a handslap.
Then you have three guys who between the three of them saddle like 5000 starters a year(I'm not kidding) who get one postive for mepiv and they get federal cases. Its a joke really.
Tim Asmussen is able to manage that number of horses because he has an eidetic(photographic) memory. If you ask him about any one of the 500 horses he has under his care he can tell you all about the horse without having to look it up, thats how smart he is. He also makes a lot of money. Do you really believe that he went to great lengths to "juice" an ulra cheap claimer in Lousiana? Do you really believe that a guy like Todd who makes millions went to great lengths to "juice" up a 75 claimer(thats what the horse was who got him his postive)? Do you really think that Dutrow went to great lengths to insure that Farmer Jake(the 30 claimer that got him his caine postive, the other one was clenbuterol in a 14 claimer) would win?
The funny thing is that all of these guys compete at the grade one level with horses where there is supertesting and surveillance and they win those races all the time. IF they are indeed juicing why do they not test positive in races like the Travers or BCC or Met Mile when their horses win? Its just absurd. When you saddle that many horses there is going to be occasional vet error, its a numbers game.

[Gander]

It is kind of stupid to think a guy like Asmussen would do something illegal to win a 75 claimer when he is constantly competing in huge graded stakes, especially at Saratoga with his babies. It would really stink not having this guy around for the meet up here, I like him. Hes very nice to me in the mornings when I ask my stupid questions. I was a big fan of Lady Tak.

Horse racing has gotten as bad as baseball. They might as well just legalize all these drugs. They have ruined the breed with all these drugs anyway. Top horses need months between races now when they used to race every two weeks. I am convinced these guys running the testing programs get paid off by trainers and when the trainers stop paying the tests start coming up positive.

Originally Posted by boldruler

Horse racing has gotten as bad as baseball. They might as well just legalize all these drugs. They have ruined the breed with all these drugs anyway. Top horses need months between races now when they used to race every two weeks. I am convinced these guys running the testing programs get paid off by trainers and when the trainers stop paying the tests start coming up positive.

Ruler that may have been the craziest thing you ever wrote. You really are talking trash here. Lemme ask you something ok? WHen you go to the dentist to have work done do you refuse novaCAINE(same family)? When you had stitches did you refuse the shot the Dr, gave you before he sticthed you up? Thats all this is. I'd think as smart as you are in real life terms(but not horses yet) that you would see beyond the hype and actually think about this. So we have horses getting cuts stitched up and thats juicing? Please.

Originally Posted by Gander

It is kind of stupid to think a guy like Asmussen would do something illegal to win a 75 claimer when he is constantly competing in huge graded stakes, especially at Saratoga with his babies. It would really stink not having this guy around for the meet up here, I like him. Hes very nice to me in the mornings when I ask my stupid questions. I was a big fan of Lady Tak.

Tim if you knew Todd you would say the same thing. I can assure you that he isn't just "smart" in terms of the racing game, hes just plain real smart period. No way would he jeopardize his reputation and income so he could win that 75 claimer. The owner of the 75 claimer was Coolmore. You telling me that Coolmore was sweating winning that race? Give me a break. Dutrow is his own worst enemy because of his attitude and demeanor at times. He is often referred to as a punk at the racetrack because he is ****y and hes not real good with the media because he tells it like it is and doesnt posture his responses to win favor. But he is really a brilliant guy and actually sensitive about how other trainers he respects feel about him.
These suspensions are a glaring example of whats wrong with testing and penalties these days. Its kinda like when Zito and Mott got suspensions for lidocaine(note that it was yet another caine family drug). Both trainers had horses with cracked feet and at the time the salve that most vets were using contained Lidocaine. So basically they treated cracked feet and got ten days. Shoot, all they did was take the salve that the vet gave them(vets dont come by every day to administer something so easy as that, groom rubs it on) and cut it off when the vet said to cut it off, and it lingered. Meanwhile someplace in America today a horse will improve ten lengths after being claimed last week and win off the screen and not test positive for anything. Great huh?

[SentToStud]

Originally Posted by oracle80

Tim if you knew Todd you would say the same thing. I can assure you that he isn't just "smart" in terms of the racing game, hes just plain real smart period. No way would he jeopardize his reputation and income so he could win that 75 claimer. The owner of the 75 claimer was Coolmore. You telling me that Coolmore was sweating winning that race? Give me a break. Dutrow is his own worst enemy because of his attitude and demeanor at times. He is often referred to as a punk at the racetrack because he is ****y and hes not real good with the media because he tells it like it is and doesnt posture his responses to win favor. But he is really a brilliant guy and actually sensitive about how other trainers he respects feel about him.
These suspensions are a glaring example of whats wrong with testing and penalties these days. Its kinda like when Zito and Mott got suspensions for lidocaine(note that it was yet another caine family drug). Both trainers had horses with cracked feet and at the time the salve that most vets were using contained Lidocaine. So basically they treated cracked feet and got ten days. Shoot, all they did was take the salve that the vet gave them(vets dont come by every day to administer something so easy as that, groom rubs it on) and cut it off when the vet said to cut it off, and it lingered. Meanwhile someplace in America today a horse will improve ten lengths after being claimed last week and win off the screen and not test positive for anything. Great huh?

Here's what I think. I think it's going to get worse, much worse.

There's a few dynamics that make me think so. First, drugs in any sport are a problem and with what's gone on in baseball; those running racing (and other sports) have a price to pay in terms of defending the PERCEPTION of their sports. Right or wrong, that's how it is and politicians and career bureaucrats who feast on this kind of "crisis" will do all they can to ensure their continued livelihood. Second, the stakes are higher and different with slot machines. These things generate so damn much revenue that there has to be comensurate "oversight." With the horseracing industry morphing into the slot machine/horse racing industry, there's more political capital at stake and with this comes, yes, more career bureaucrats making and applying uninformed policy that insults common sense and adversely affects racing's interests. I have so concrete numbers on this, but I'd bet my last dollar that slot machines at racetracks result in a direct and positive correlation of the percentage of state racing commission positions filled by "non-racing industry" people. Third, Spitzer. Other states will see more Spitzer-esque type of actions and decide to make "bold" statements with impunity. Too bad all of us are not able to do our own jobs so recklessly.

I think it's fair and reasonable to have and apply the "absolute guarantor" responsibility rule to trainers, notwithstanding the fact that they may have hundreds of horses under their supervision. After all, a trainer with that wide and deep an operation has obviously made the decision to work that way. But 45 days for Pletcher and 180 days for Assmussen? That's ridiculous. Whatever happened to 10 day or 14 day suspensions?

Think it's bad now? Just wait until they get close to putting slot machines in the NYRA tracks and the politicians see how much more revenue will flow through the tracks and the state. The pols and career bureaucrats will be coming out of the woodwork to "protect the public interest" like trained pigs.

Nothing worse for racing than slot machines. Instead of reducing the number of tracks and racing days, instead of spending money on improving track surfaces and jockey health care costs, instead of thinking mid and long-term, track owners are scrambling to run and build just for the sake of slot machine revenue. It's the wrong way to do business, but that's how the game is now played.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by Kasept

Except that Ace is a tranquilizer that calms horses down... Not "juice" them up... And Mepivicaine is nothing but a local that is used whenever you do minor surgery on a horse like dental work. Both can linger in a horse's bloodstream at varying rates. If Asmussen, and I'm no fan of his, is doing "something" it ISN'T with the likes of Mepivicaine and Ace.

Following the Buff Bradley/Brass Hat situation tells you everything you need to know about these situations. Manufacturer guidelines said that the product would be in a horses system for up to 23 days. Buff gave it to Hat 28days out. The 3 vets that testified on the Bradley's behalf tested on a variety of horses and found that the detectable trace amounts could linger UP TO 44 DAYS in a horse's bloodstream... So I guess Buff is "juicing" Brass Hat in your mind too?

Whatever we may think "supertrainers" or "move up" trainers are doing, it's NOT the things that these suspensions (Asmussen, Pletcher, Dutrow) are citing...

Sure there are innocuous uses for Mepivicaine, but there are also sinister uses for it such as to nerve-block a horse. That is why it is illegal. For those of you that don't know that means, when you nerve-block a horse, you inject a nerve in the sore area such as the knee or ankle so the horse won't be able to feel anything in the area that is nerve-blocked. Not only is nerve-blocking a horse totally illegal but it is one of the most unethical things you can do. When a horse can't feel anything, this greatly increases the chances of a horse breaking a leg.
I know that some people think that most of these trainers are angels and would never do anything illegal but the truth of the matter is that trainers cheat all the time and the penalties are not severe enough.
For those of you that believe these trainers' innocuous explanations for why their horses tested positive, I have some swamp land I'd like to sell you.

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

Sure there are innocuous uses for Mepivicaine, but there are also sinister uses for it such as to nerve-block a horse. That is why it is illegal. For those of you that don't know that means, when you nerve-block a horse, you inject a nerve in the sore area such as the knee or ankle so the horse won't be able to feel anything in the area that is nerve-blocked. Not only is nerve-blocking a horse totally illegal but it is one of the most unethical things you can do. When a horse can't feel anything, this greatly increases the chances of a horse breaking a leg.
I know that some people think that most of these trainers are angels and would never do anything illegal but the truth of the matter is that trainers cheat all the time and the penalties are not severe enough.
For those of you that believe these trainers' innocuous explanations for why their horses tested positive, I have some swamp land I'd like to sell you.

The best way to explain it is this way--a NFL running back twists his knee--he goes to the locker room to get a shot. Next thing you know he comes back out and runs for 2 TDs and 200 yards. After the game he gets an MRI and he has a torn ligament. Huh--how did he not feel the pain?

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by eurobounce

The best way to explain it is this way--a NFL running back twists his knee--he goes to the locker room to get a shot. Next thing you know he comes back out and runs for 2 TDs and 200 yards. After the game he gets an MRI and he has a torn ligament. Huh--how did he not feel the pain?

With a football player, I think they usually give them a shot of cortisone. That is quite different from a nerve-block. Trainers use cortisone too.

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

With a football player, I think they usually give them a shot of cortisone. That is quite different from a nerve-block. Trainers use cortisone too.

Yeah cortisone is the drug. I couldnt remember that. But doesnt it do the same thing as a nerve blocking agent?