More proof D Wayne has lost whatever it was

[miraja2]

Originally Posted by Pedigree Ann

Here's the link for Perfect Mandate's stallion page.

www.ctba.com/07directory/peds/PerfectMndate.pdf

At least he was second in a stakes race at Santa Anita before he got hurt. Okay sort of local sire in CA. Actually has more of a turf pedigree than anything - dam by The Minstrel, second dam a top 2yo in Ireland who beat the boys in the Phoenix S(G1).

Flying Sensation's only win was the Cal Cup Juvie, at 8.5f. Was also 3rd in the G1 Hollywood Futurity and a couple of G3s. Calbred son of Flying Paster (heard of him?) out of a listed SW.

Had you heard of Slewacide before Funny Cide showed up?

Had I heard of Slewacide? No, but I had heard of Distorted Humor.
Listen, you know a LOT more about this stuff than I do, but wouldn't you agree with me that being by Perfect Mandate and out of a Flying Sensation mare isn't exactly an overwhelming pedigree?
I know that on-the-track success does not always determine quality in the shed, but again I ask you, how many top-level horses come from a pedigree where their sire and broodmare sire combined for only one lifetime win? That would be pretty strange wouldn't it?

[Grits]

The title of this thread bothers me, as its such a glaring negative, and I hope that anyone looking in reads what I'm adding.

Wayne Lukas, no, he doesn't have the winners any longer. The ones that took him to the very top of this game and kept him there for so many years.

What he does have still, is the desire to train, saddle, and compete. Some run well, some don't.

Whether you like him, his style of training, or not, the very trainers that you are praising today, now at the top, are the past assistants of Lukas, and I know that everyone here knows that.

Not only did Lukas give his charges an excellent foundation, work ethic, and attention to every detail, this man, pretty much singlehandedly, revolutionized the sport, shipping horses all over the country, and maintaining a far reaching stable in various racing jurisdictions.

Torches are passed, that is part of living, and as it should be. We teach and hope, and allow for those that come after us to excel.

Wayne Lukas has done far, far more for this game than the insignificant notations here are implying.

He's been one of the sport's greatest teachers and ambassadors, and remains so.

[alysheba4]

good post grits....

[Grits]

Originally Posted by alysheba4

good post grits....

Much thanks, Alysheba4.

[Rileyoriley]

Originally Posted by Grits

The title of this thread bothers me, as its such a glaring negative, and I hope that anyone looking in reads what I'm adding.

Wayne Lukas, no, he doesn't have the winners any longer. The ones that took him to the very top of this game and kept him there for so many years.

What he does have still, is the desire to train, saddle, and compete. Some run well, some don't.

Whether you like him, his style of training, or not, the very trainers that you are praising today, now at the top, are the past assistants of Lukas, and I know that everyone here knows that.

Not only did Lukas give his charges an excellent foundation, work ethic, and attention to every detail, this man, pretty much singlehandedly, revolutionized the sport, shipping horses all over the country, and maintaining a far reaching stable in various racing jurisdictions.

Torches are passed, that is part of living, and as it should be. We teach and hope, and allow for those that come after us to excel.

Wayne Lukas has done far, far more for this game than the insignificant notations here are implying.

He's been one of the sport's greatest teachers and ambassadors, and remains so.

Baffert doesn't seem to winning as much either since the Prince passed away. He and Lukas were the Derby kings in the 90's.

[ELA]

Originally Posted by Grits

The title of this thread bothers me, as its such a glaring negative, and I hope that anyone looking in reads what I'm adding.

Wayne Lukas, no, he doesn't have the winners any longer. The ones that took him to the very top of this game and kept him there for so many years.

What he does have still, is the desire to train, saddle, and compete. Some run well, some don't.

Whether you like him, his style of training, or not, the very trainers that you are praising today, now at the top, are the past assistants of Lukas, and I know that everyone here knows that.

Not only did Lukas give his charges an excellent foundation, work ethic, and attention to every detail, this man, pretty much singlehandedly, revolutionized the sport, shipping horses all over the country, and maintaining a far reaching stable in various racing jurisdictions.

Torches are passed, that is part of living, and as it should be. We teach and hope, and allow for those that come after us to excel.

Wayne Lukas has done far, far more for this game than the insignificant notations here are implying.

He's been one of the sport's greatest teachers and ambassadors, and remains so.

Originally Posted by alysheba4

good post grits....

I very much echo those sentiments, and add a personal touch -- DAMN good post!!!

Eric

[Pedigree Ann]

Originally Posted by miraja2

Had I heard of Slewacide? No, but I had heard of Distorted Humor.
Listen, you know a LOT more about this stuff than I do, but wouldn't you agree with me that being by Perfect Mandate and out of a Flying Sensation mare isn't exactly an overwhelming pedigree?

Oh, definitely, not overwhelming. Wouldn't be surprised to see it on a Cal-bred SW, or maybe the winner of an open stakes in the Bay Area, probably not in SoCal, though.

But, of course, Silver Buck out of a Poker mare (Silver Charm), At the Threshold out of a For the Moment mare (Lil E. Tee), or Buckaroo out of a Speak John mare (Spend a Buck) didn't exactly score very high on the blue-blood meter, either. And then there is 'by Saggy out of Joppy, by Star Blen', the obscurest of obscure pedigrees that belonged to a Derby winner - Carry Back (winner of 21 of 61, champion at 2, won Kentucky Derby, Preakness,, etc. at 3, Met Mile, Whitney, etc. at 4). Actually all these stallions I've named were good performers (well, Star Blen wasn't) on the track but had unfashionable pedigrees, or average stud performance, or both. So people discounted them out of hand. I try not to make that mistake.

[miraja2]

Originally Posted by Pedigree Ann

Oh, definitely, not overwhelming. Wouldn't be surprised to see it on a Cal-bred SW, or maybe the winner of an open stakes in the Bay Area, probably not in SoCal, though.

But, of course, Silver Buck out of a Poker mare (Silver Charm), At the Threshold out of a For the Moment mare (Lil E. Tee), or Buckaroo out of a Speak John mare (Spend a Buck) didn't exactly score very high on the blue-blood meter, either. And then there is 'by Saggy out of Joppy, by Star Blen', the obscurest of obscure pedigrees that belonged to a Derby winner - Carry Back (winner of 21 of 61, champion at 2, won Kentucky Derby, Preakness,, etc. at 3, Met Mile, Whitney, etc. at 4). Actually all these stallions I've named were good performers (well, Star Blen wasn't) on the track but had unfashionable pedigrees, or average stud performance, or both. So people discounted them out of hand. I try not to make that mistake.

I don't see how these examples disprove my argument at all. Silver Buck (Silver Charm's sire) and At the Threshold (Lil E. Tee's sire) were certainly not the greatest stallions in the world, but they were both MULTIPLE G1 winners, and they both won G1s at 10f. Buckaroo (Spend a Buck's sire) never won a G1, but he was a multiple G2 winner. In comparison to Perfect Mandate and Flying Sensation they were Citation returned to earth!!
I am certainly not saying that we should "discount horses out of hand" that do not have great pedigrees. I am merely suggesting that it would be extremely rare for a horse (like Flying First Class) to accomplish much, when his sire and broodmare sire accomplished so liitle.
The examples you cited are ones in which the horses in question had sires and/or broodmare sires that accomplished quite a lot on the track, although perhaps not consistently in the shed.

[Pedigree Ann]

Back when I was a newby in SoCal, there was a local stallion named Windsor Ruler. He made only one lifetime start and finished off the board. He had been a promising 2yo but had gotten hurt; his people had believed enough in him to try to bring him back at 4, but he was re-injured in his come-back race. While I was out there, he sired two G1-type winners - Solar Salute (Santa Anita Derby) and Opening Bid (Santa Susana=SA Oaks).

Point is, very lightly-raced horses may have been cut out to be good ones but never got the chance to show it on the track for one or another reason, while retaining the genetic 'good stuff.' Not every lightly raced horse, of course. However one has to leave oneself open to the possibility that such a stallion could sire a really good runner, seemly out of the blue.

[miraja2]

Originally Posted by Pedigree Ann

Back when I was a newby in SoCal, there was a local stallion named Windsor Ruler. He made only one lifetime start and finished off the board. He had been a promising 2yo but had gotten hurt; his people had believed enough in him to try to bring him back at 4, but he was re-injured in his come-back race. While I was out there, he sired two G1-type winners - Solar Salute (Santa Anita Derby) and Opening Bid (Santa Susana=SA Oaks).

Point is, very lightly-raced horses may have been cut out to be good ones but never got the chance to show it on the track for one or another reason, while retaining the genetic 'good stuff.' Not every lightly raced horse, of course. However one has to leave oneself open to the possibility that such a stallion could sire a really good runner, seemly out of the blue.

I don't want to keep arguing this forever, and I certainly do see your point, but in the case of Flying First Class both his sire and his broodmare sire would be coming from "out-of-the-blue." At least the broodmare sire of Solar Salute and Opening Bid was a multiple stakes winner.
My original point was not that it is impossible, but that it is pretty rare.