A weird trend I've noticed....

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

He called him King's Revenge I think.

Honestly, I still don't think BTW has gotten over the retirement of Vindication either.....

What I haven't gotten over is your premature retirement.

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

What I haven't gotten over is your premature retirement.

zzzzzzz

Yet another lame attempt to pimp Discreet Cat.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

I even worked his half brother into it!

Why is it that you think no horse who's ever won a debut at Saratoga or Del Mar has went on to capture his division the following season?

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

Why is it that you think no horse who's ever won a debut at Saratoga or Del Mar has went on to capture his division the following season?

Pre BC 2YOs started racing LONG before Saratoga. Post BC they ran so few races as 2YOs that their form was close to meaningless.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Pre BC 2YOs started racing LONG before Saratoga. Post BC they ran so few races as 2YOs that their form was close to meaningless.

That has something to do with it...

But...there have been quite a few older horses that debuted at Saratoga, lost, and won the 3yo division the next year.

In fact, the first offical champion 3-year-old was Granville in '36. He was 3rd in his debut at Saratoga.

Arts and Letters and Stage Door Johnny, who were back-to-back champion 3yo's in the 60's...they both lost debuts at Saratoga.

The great Tom Fool easily won his debut at Saratoga in 1951, and was named champion 2yo. He got beat out by One Count for the division crown as a 3 year-old. He was 10-for-10 as a 4-year-old.

It really just looks like a statistical oddity to me.

[Phalaris1913]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Pre BC 2YOs started racing LONG before Saratoga. Post BC they ran so few races as 2YOs that their form was close to meaningless.

This pretty much nails it.

Used to be, well-intended 2YOs, many of which were future high-class 3YOs, had already been running by this time. Now, well-intended 2YOs, many of which will be hurt long before they even begin to accomplish enough to win a championship at 3, are not running that early.

[Linny]

According to the NYRA calandar (a bastion of mis-information) they have one Twilight card scheuled for the Spa, the same as last year, the Friday of Labor Day weekend.

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by Linny

According to the NYRA calandar (a bastion of mis-information) they have one Twilight card scheuled for the Spa, the same as last year, the Friday of Labor Day weekend.

http://www.timesunion.com/AspStories...date=12/7/2006

The one is for sure and they expect to add at least one more.

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

I even worked his half brother into it!

Why is it that you think no horse who's ever won a debut at Saratoga or Del Mar has went on to capture his division the following season?

To me it is rather astounding that this has never happened. I would love to go back and see where the horses who won a 3 year championship debut. I don't think there is one particupar reason to this question. The only thing I can think of is that you are only working with about 8-12 weeks a year between the two tracks. But like you mentioned, there are tons of great MSW races at both tracks that attract top horses.

[Sightseek]

Out of curiosity I started looking up a few horses that were Champion Three Year Olds...did A.P. Indy make his debut in an Allowance or is this information wrong?

http://www.tmeter.com/horses/apindy.html

[Linny]

AP Indy ran in a MSW at DelMar in his debut. He was 4th.

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by Linny

AP Indy ran in a MSW at DelMar in his debut. He was 4th.

Thanks, the database is wrong then.

[Linny]

The 3yo divisions in the late 90's were dominated by Cali horses. Charismatic/Silver Charm/Real Quiet etc all came from thew west. Skip Away and Holy Bull debuted at Monmouth and, Thunder Gulch was 3rd in a BEL MSW in his debut. Prairie Bayou was crushed in his KEE debut and won 2nd out at Churchill.

There was a time when SAR maiden winners were regarded as the best propsects. Before the BC, races like the Futurity and the Champagne made champions.

Sorry to say but with guys like Pletcher winning bunches of races for 2yo's at the Spa, the 3yo records of those winners should be better. It looks like they are pointed for the win at the Spa and then if they don't pan out, oh well...we still have some more serious, later developing types for the classics.

Also, it used to be that the best 2yo's in the east went to Saratoga for the stakes program. Affirmed was already a sw when he hit town. Dehere won all three SAR stakes at 2. So did City Zip. Of course, now most of the horses pointed for those races are not the ones trainers are considering for the classics the next season.

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

I even worked his half brother into it!

Why is it that you think no horse who's ever won a debut at Saratoga or Del Mar has went on to capture his division the following season?

There were horses that broke their maidens at Delmar and Saratoga and went on to be 3yo champ, just not in their debut. Since the 3yo champion is always going to be a router, why is it surprising that no champ wins first out of the box at 5 or 5.5 furlongs?

Also, like btw says, before the BC, many champs won at Saratoga, they had just run numerous times already.

I like how AP Indy shipped to Golden Gate to win a race before the Hollywood Futurity.

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by eurobounce

I like how AP Indy shipped to Golden Gate to win a race before the Hollywood Futurity.

Does this have some secret meaning to this thread that I am missing?

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

There were horses that broke their maidens at Delmar and Saratoga and went on to be 3yo champ, just not in their debut. Since the 3yo champion is always going to be a router, why is it surprising that no champ wins first out of the box at 5 or 5.5 furlongs?

Also, like btw says, before the BC, many champs won at Saratoga, they had just run numerous times already.

Affirmed (Belmont Park) & Afleet Alex (Deleware) did just to name a few, however I do not know the distance they were running at.

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Sightseek

Affirmed (Belmont Park) & Afleet Alex (Deleware) did just to name a few, however I do not know the distance they were running at.

I should have added in July or August against top competition, which is what I was trying to convey (obviously poorly).

[philcski]

Originally Posted by Sightseek

Affirmed (Belmont Park) & Afleet Alex (Deleware) did just to name a few, however I do not know the distance they were running at.

Secretariat also had won prior to his running at Saratoga (first race there was an allowance). I believe AA had won at 5F (MSW) and 5.5F (ALW) at Delaware prior to running in the Sanford. Affirmed, I believe he started at 5.5F although I could definitely be wrong on that one.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by philcski

Secretariat also had won prior to his running at Saratoga (first race there was an allowance). I believe AA had won at 5F (MSW) and 5.5F (ALW) at Delaware prior to running in the Sanford. Affirmed, I believe he started at 5.5F although I could definitely be wrong on that one.

Affirmed had already won at least two stakes. He certainly won at least one in NY and the Hollywood Juvenile before shipping to Saratoga and winning the Sanford ( I think it was the Sanford and not the Special ) and Hopeful.