Did i go too far?

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Downthestretch55

Mark,
I hope you don't mind me putting in my two pennies worth.
I've dealt with similar situations.
Yes, children need clearly defined structure (rules).
But by you placing yourself in the "authority" position, you win, your son loses, and, sorry to say, next time he sees a lapse, he'll be looking for a way to "beat" you so that he can have a sense of "winning".
Once this happens, it quickly becomes a "lose x lose"...you don't get what you want (disobedient son) and he doesn't get what he wants (authoritarian father).
So, allow me to suggest a way do find a better outcome...a "win x win".
It starts with communicating what you want (pick up stuff, eat food), and you son sharing what he will want so that if he pleases you (gives you a win), that he can get something positive. Let him say what it is, within reason.
Children interact in a positive environment where the adult is in control, but the child senses that this is in his best interest. Simply, it comes down to not demanding, but rather agreeing. Children really do want to contribute to the harmony within their families. They just have to see that it is in their interest to do so. It's "wanting" to do something rather than having that something demanded. It's up to the adult to create the attitude, cause, afterall, you're smarter, and you're the parent.
If you can find a book titled "Parent Effectiveness Training", it might be worth your time to read.
Good luck. If I can help you in any way, pm me and I'll give you my e-mail.
Wayne

i disagree. the parent IS the authority. children need guidelines, and an adult willing to be the 'bad guy' to make sure kids do what is expected. there is reward for doing what your supposed to, and punishment when you don't. the last thing you should ever do however is make a rule, establish the risk if you don't follow, and then back off on the punishment. in other words, don't take back the punishment or cave in. you just took away your own authority.
also, never threaten a punishment you and your child knows full well isn't going to happen. for example, when my mother screamed if i didn't do such and such, she would kill me. obviously that wouldn't happen. i also find that a quiet firm voice works wonders, where screaming gets you nothing but a sore throat.

[GenuineRisk]

Not that my opinion counts for a hill of beans because I don't have kids either (though I was one once), but I think I fall somewhere in between Danzig and DTS in my thoughts, Mark.

First off, I don't think you were too harsh-- the only privileges you took away were electronic entertainment ones, and frankly, entertainment is your reward for getting your necessary things done. And you gave him a set day of when privileges would come back, so you established a structure. I think discipline, fairly administered is a good thing, and also I think makes for a secure upbringing.

What I would encourage is making what he needs to maintain his entertainment privileges a set list-- where I think parents can sometimes be unfair is when they continue to add things onto the "you must do" list, without any reward or appreciation for the kid accomplishing the things they originally told him to do. You know, sort of piling more work on top of work. If there are other things he needs to do, find some other privilege that he has to earn for those things.

I'm a fan of not forcing kids to finish what's on their plates-- kudos to you for saying he has to taste the food, but not necessarily finish it (speaking as a kid who had an ongoing war with my mother over eating that eventually turned into an eating disorder, the less importance put on food, the better). Mind you, if he doesn't eat, and he's hungry later, you can either let him go to bed hungry, thereby teaching him he'll have to eat when the family does, or let him make his own meal (and clean up after himself)- the trick there being keeping things you don't want him eating late at night out of the house.

Though I would still make him stay at the table, even if he doesn't want to eat-- families who can manage to eat together should take advantage of that time together, I think, even if everyone doesn't finish at the same time.

The main point that DTS raised that I think is very valuable is to make sure to praise him for what he does right-- if he does a good job keeping his room clean, or whatever, be sure to tell him how nice it looks. DTS is right in that most kids do want to please (even as they're busy challenging authority) and positive reinforcement can work wonders. Don't treat the things he does right as "Well, that's no more than he should do"- make sure he knows you're happy about it. I don't think he needs stuff as a reward, necessarily, because I think that makes us connect doing good with getting things, rather than bringing some happiness to other people. Which feels better than getting stuff, anyway, it just takes a while to learn that for some of us.

And I'm a fan of allowances, tied into accomplishing chores. I did chores for my spending money AND learned a lot about managing my money at the same time- my parents were NOT an open wallet if I ran out of money. Plus it made me eager to get a part-time job once I was old enough.

(Of course, I was such a nerd growing up, I got punished by not being allowed to read books!)

My two cents (more like a quarter at this point).

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by GenuineRisk

Not that my opinion counts for a hill of beans because I don't have kids either (though I was one once), but I think I fall somewhere in between Danzig and DTS in my thoughts, Mark.

First off, I don't think you were too harsh-- the only privileges you took away were electronic entertainment ones, and frankly, entertainment is your reward for getting your necessary things done. And you gave him a set day of when privileges would come back, so you established a structure. I think discipline, fairly administered is a good thing, and also I think makes for a secure upbringing.

What I would encourage is making what he needs to maintain his entertainment privileges a set list-- where I think parents can sometimes be unfair is when they continue to add things onto the "you must do" list, without any reward or appreciation for the kid accomplishing the things they originally told him to do. You know, sort of piling more work on top of work. If there are other things he needs to do, find some other privilege that he has to earn for those things.

I'm a fan of not forcing kids to finish what's on their plates-- kudos to you for saying he has to taste the food, but not necessarily finish it (speaking as a kid who had an ongoing war with my mother over eating that eventually turned into an eating disorder, the less importance put on food, the better). Mind you, if he doesn't eat, and he's hungry later, you can either let him go to bed hungry, thereby teaching him he'll have to eat when the family does, or let him make his own meal (and clean up after himself)- the trick there being keeping things you don't want him eating late at night out of the house.

Though I would still make him stay at the table, even if he doesn't want to eat-- families who can manage to eat together should take advantage of that time together, I think, even if everyone doesn't finish at the same time.

The main point that DTS raised that I think is very valuable is to make sure to praise him for what he does right-- if he does a good job keeping his room clean, or whatever, be sure to tell him how nice it looks. DTS is right in that most kids do want to please (even as they're busy challenging authority) and positive reinforcement can work wonders. Don't treat the things he does right as "Well, that's no more than he should do"- make sure he knows you're happy about it. I don't think he needs stuff as a reward, necessarily, because I think that makes us connect doing good with getting things, rather than bringing some happiness to other people. Which feels better than getting stuff, anyway, it just takes a while to learn that for some of us.

And I'm a fan of allowances, tied into accomplishing chores. I did chores for my spending money AND learned a lot about managing my money at the same time- my parents were NOT an open wallet if I ran out of money. Plus it made me eager to get a part-time job once I was old enough.

(Of course, I was such a nerd growing up, I got punished by not being allowed to read books!)

My two cents (more like a quarter at this point).

i don't make my kids eat what's served. i spend many a time gagging down food when i was growing up, as you ate EVERYTHING whether you liked it or not.
but i don't prepare special meals for anyone who doesn't like what's fixed either.
we usually have enough variety in salad, veggies and the like that no one goes hungry.
and positive re-inforcement goes a long way. no way a kid should only hear his parents voice when they are barking out orders or telling them what they did wrong.
my kids and i have a lot of fun together, we cut up a lot. BUT, i am their parent first and foremost.

[hoovesupsideyourhead]

pretty good ..just dont fold lake a cheap claimer..you and your other must be united..or your toast.. and a good spanking doesent hurt..kids these days..lol

[paisjpq]

Originally Posted by GenuineRisk

(Of course, I was such a nerd growing up, I got punished by not being allowed to read books!)

I agree with absolutely everything you said Nicole...but this made me laugh...when I was little I lost my "reading lamp" and had to leave the door to my bedroom open at night so I couldn't read all night because Bedtime was bedtime.. I can remember my mother talking to the other mothers and their disbelief that she actually punished me for reading

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by paisjpq

I agree with absolutely everything you said Nicole...but this made me laugh...when I was little I lost my "reading lamp" and had to leave the door to my bedroom open at night so I couldn't read all night because Bedtime was bedtime.. I can remember my mother talking to the other mothers and their disbelief that she actually punished me for reading

exactly the same with my daughter. people are baffled that i forbid her reading.
but to take away the tv would mean nothing, same as ps2 and computer. she would just read.
i on the other hand.....my mother would punish me be confining me to my room. a fate worse than death.
so, what did i do when not allowed outside? THEN i would read. my poor mother, i was a humming bundle of energy. she hated when it rained, my brother and i drove her nuts when stuck inside.

[Byebyemermaid]

One of the things i like about this board is the varying points of view that all of you have.Let me also state that for any of you that thought i might be offended of the 2 cents you put in,then i would've had no right to post a thread like this.The fact is,i grew up in a very disciplined household.As i've said before my dad is a holocaust survivor and had the pain of seeing his parents get deported which hardened him as a person.This past Saturday night we went over to my brothers house for dinner and later on we went to a comedy club.You guessed it our son did not eat what was put in front of him.As people got done i made him stay at the table and he was not allowed to play with his cousins or sister.Before we left for the club he changed into his pajamas and went to bed having only had 2 glasses of water.I informed my neices that he can't have any snacks or play with them.On Sunday we went out to breakfast and he did eat 4 pancakes and 2 glasses of orange juice.Sunday night we made alphabet pasta.Our daughter ate 3 bowls he struggled with a little.I told my wife you got to be with me on this and not waver and get soft.He's great in school and got almost perfect grades.

[GenuineRisk]

Originally Posted by Byebyemermaid

One of the things i like about this board is the varying points of view that all of you have.Let me also state that for any of you that thought i might be offended of the 2 cents you put in,then i would've had no right to post a thread like this.The fact is,i grew up in a very disciplined household.As i've said before my dad is a holocaust survivor and had the pain of seeing his parents get deported which hardened him as a person.This past Saturday night we went over to my brothers house for dinner and later on we went to a comedy club.You guessed it our son did not eat what was put in front of him.As people got done i made him stay at the table and he was not allowed to play with his cousins or sister.Before we left for the club he changed into his pajamas and went to bed having only had 2 glasses of water.I informed my neices that he can't have any snacks or play with them.On Sunday we went out to breakfast and he did eat 4 pancakes and 2 glasses of orange juice.Sunday night we made alphabet pasta.Our daughter ate 3 bowls he struggled with a little.I told my wife you got to be with me on this and not waver and get soft.He's great in school and got almost perfect grades.

What does he like to eat? Awesome about him being a good student, by the way.

[Byebyemermaid]

Originally Posted by GenuineRisk

What does he like to eat? Awesome about him being a good student, by the way.

He'll eat pizza,french fries,pancakes,french toast,dry everything bagel which is his lunch in school and on occasion an onion omellete.Any kind of sweet that goes his way.Our daughter eats everything you put in front of her and whatever she sees new on your plate.When she was 18 months old and we were in Vermont my wife order a cesar salad and they put achovies on it.My wife took them off and our daughter started to eat them to the point where the waiter was amazed and brought ou more only to watch her finish them.She also started to eat Sushi at the same time and i mean flying fish roe,ikura.yellowtail,tuna,white tuna but her favorite is salmon.She can polish off guacamole like nothing.Loves the soup there as well as the seaweed.I joke with my wife that the problem is that when she was pregnant with our son we went out and ate a lot of junk.With our daughter it was salads and fruit.I guess the old you're a product of your environment starts in the womb.

[Downthestretch55]

Originally Posted by paisjpq

I agree with absolutely everything you said Nicole...but this made me laugh...when I was little I lost my "reading lamp" and had to leave the door to my bedroom open at night so I couldn't read all night because Bedtime was bedtime.. I can remember my mother talking to the other mothers and their disbelief that she actually punished me for reading

Pais,
I hear you. Of course all parents want their kids to love reading. You sound like there was something that happened to discourage you...but look at what you're doing, all the time. Right?
Here's a little story about a friend that was really frustrated about his dog, actually, a puppy. Being a "dog lover" like me, you might see what I mean.
So, he came over to my house with his little pooch, very frustrated and ready to give her away or bring her to the shelter.
I said, what's the problem?
He said, she doesn't come when I call her.
So, I said, let her go, lets see.
He took her off the leash, she ran away, curious about all the smells and enjoying her run. Ahh freedom.
So he calls, Here MOLLY!
No response.
HERE MOLLY!!!
She's like...go to hell...
HERE MOLLY!!!!!!!!! Louder.

This went on about fifteen times. He just kept getting louder but never made a move in her direction. Talk about frustration.
So, I whispered, just be quiet. Wait and watch.

After a while, she decided to come back.
What do you think he did?
He hit her hard on her ass and said, "WHY DIDN"T YOU COME BACK TO ME THE FIRST TIME I CALLED YOU, MOLLY?" Smack!

If you were a puppy, would you come back to that?
She never did again either, for quite a while.
Then the task was in the retraining.
Not the puppy, the "master".

Here, when she comes back, give her a little puppy biscuit and a pat on the head. Tell her you're happy she returned.
It didn't take long. She learned quickly.
Sometimes, dogs are smarter than people.

[paisjpq]

Originally Posted by Downthestretch55

Pais,
I hear you. Of course all parents want their kids to love reading. You sound like there was something that happened to discourage you...but look at what you're doing, all the time. Right?
Here's a little story about a friend that was really frustrated about his dog, actually, a puppy. Being a "dog lover" like me, you might see what I mean.
So, he came over to my house with his little pooch, very frustrated and ready to give her away or bring her to the shelter.
I said, what's the problem?
He said, she doesn't come when I call her.
So, I said, let her go, lets see.
He took her off the leash, she ran away, curious about all the smells and enjoying her run. Ahh freedom.
So he calls, Here MOLLY!
No response.
HERE MOLLY!!!
She's like...go to hell...
HERE MOLLY!!!!!!!!! Louder.

This went on about fifteen times. He just kept getting louder but never made a move in her direction. Talk about frustration.
So, I whispered, just be quiet. Wait and watch.

After a while, she decided to come back.
What do you think he did?
He hit her hard on her ass and said, "WHY DIDN"T YOU COME BACK TO ME THE FIRST TIME I CALLED YOU, MOLLY?" Smack!

If you were a puppy, would you come back to that?
She never did again either, for quite a while.
Then the task was in the retraining.
Not the puppy, the "master".

Here, when she comes back, give her a little puppy biscuit and a pat on the head. Tell her you're happy she returned.
It didn't take long. She learned quickly.
Sometimes, dogs are smarter than people.

not sure what you mean...nothing bad ever happened to me. My parents encouraged reading all the time...but if I was left to my own devices as a child I would stay up all night every night reading...so they didn't let me.

your dog story I don't get at all...

[Downthestretch55]

Originally Posted by paisjpq

not sure what you mean...nothing bad ever happened to me. My parents encouraged reading all the time...but if I was left to my own devices as a child I would stay up all night every night reading...so they didn't let me.

your dog story I don't get at all...

ok...sorry. It was about positive reinforcement.
I must have misread about your reading light.
Nevermind.

[GenuineRisk]

Originally Posted by paisjpq

I agree with absolutely everything you said Nicole...but this made me laugh...when I was little I lost my "reading lamp" and had to leave the door to my bedroom open at night so I couldn't read all night because Bedtime was bedtime.. I can remember my mother talking to the other mothers and their disbelief that she actually punished me for reading

That's hilarious-- I have many memories of reading in the dark, too!

Here's a question, regarding food (I'm with you, Danzig, on not force-feeding- I think it screws up eating habits more than it teaches discipline)- though I agree about not catering to a kids' craving for pizza and cheeseburgers every night, what if a kid wants to be vegetarian?

Mulling it over, I think I would accomodate that- if it put a lot of strain on dinner schedules (having to make two things), I'd probably require the kid to assist with making dinner, and also require no preaching to siblings who might choose differently, but since vegetarianism is usually based in a health or moral line of thought, not a rebel-against-the-parents, I think that one I'd be willing to work with.

Easy to say, having been a strict vegetarian for several years (and even now, only an occasional meat eater, like when I'm in Argentina. ) and knowing where it comes from.

[paisjpq]

Originally Posted by GenuineRisk

That's hilarious-- I have many memories of reading in the dark, too!

Here's a question, regarding food (I'm with you, Danzig, on not force-feeding- I think it screws up eating habits more than it teaches discipline)- though I agree about not catering to a kids' craving for pizza and cheeseburgers every night, what if a kid wants to be vegetarian?

Mulling it over, I think I would accomodate that- if it put a lot of strain on dinner schedules (having to make two things), I'd probably require the kid to assist with making dinner, and also require no preaching to siblings who might choose differently, but since vegetarianism is usually based in a health or moral line of thought, not a rebel-against-the-parents, I think that one I'd be willing to work with.

Easy to say, having been a strict vegetarian for several years (and even now, only an occasional meat eater, like when I'm in Argentina. ) and knowing where it comes from.

when I was 11 I declared myself a vegetarian...these days I eat some chicken and turkey (from local farms mostly) but I haven't eaten red meat in 19 years...gosh that seems like a long time when it's written down...but I am still the only member of my family that doesn't eat meat.

anyway, growing up my parents always said you can eat what's on the table or you can make yourself a sandwich...so that's usually what I did....ate the veggies and starch and then had a sandwich...as the vegetarian craze really got going and there were more "fake" meat products on the market my mom started to buy those and I was free to make them myself...but she didn't really ever make special meals just for me...and I agree with her decisions...

[randallscott35]

Originally Posted by paisjpq

when I was 11 I declared myself a vegetarian...these days I eat some chicken and turkey (from local farms mostly) but I haven't eaten red meat in 19 years...gosh that seems like a long time when it's written down...but I am still the only member of my family that doesn't eat meat.

anyway, growing up my parents always said you can eat what's on the table or you can make yourself a sandwich...so that's usually what I did....ate the veggies and starch and then had a sandwich...as the vegetarian craze really got going and there were more "fake" meat products on the market my mom started to buy those and I was free to make them myself...but she didn't really ever make special meals just for me...and I agree with her decisions...

You need a steak.

[paisjpq]

Originally Posted by randallscott35

You need a steak.

you sound like my brother...who sends me daily picture messages to my phone of whatever beef or pork product he is eating

[GenuineRisk]

Originally Posted by randallscott35

You need a steak.

Hilarious. Almost as funny as my sister-in-law talking to me about the vegetarian restaurant she and my brother fully intended to go to when they visited family, then taking a portion of ribs for dinner, then later saying really, it wasn't the meat she wanted; it was just the sauce.

Holy toledo, eat meat or don't; just shut up about it!

(I don't have moral issues about eating animals, though I have lots of issues about factory farms and environmental consequences of excessive meat consumption. But I sure ain't preachin' at the dinner table.)