Get us out...or CNN out

[GenuineRisk]

[quote=MinnSkinny]

Originally Posted by brianwspencer

That seems to advocate the idea that as long as there are no cameras to capture war crimes and violations of the Geneva convention and intentional murder of innocent citizens....that it makes it ok?

You think they're following rules?

That doesn't justify our stooping to the level of the terrorists. If we want to claim the moral high ground, we actually have to walk on it. If we torture and maim and attack with no respect for Geneva, how are we any different from them? After all, we're the ones who went into Iraq in the first place, so we can't even claim they attacked us. This ain't Afghanistan.

[MinnSkinny]

[quote=GenuineRisk]

Originally Posted by MinnSkinny

That doesn't justify our stooping to the level of the terrorists. If we want to claim the moral high ground, we actually have to walk on it. If we torture and maim and attack with no respect for Geneva, how are we any different from them? After all, we're the ones who went into Iraq in the first place, so we can't even claim they attacked us. This ain't Afghanistan.

I have no axes to grind here, but this isn't about high ground. This is about the lives of our kids. We cannot continue to spend the human capital of hundreds or thousands of young Americans over there, when we have no chance of changing the mindset of the general population. I do not see a viable solution now, and I don't see one on the horizon either, so my point is, let's either win ugly or withdraw.
What is your solution?

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by MinnSkinny

let's either win ugly or withdraw.
What is your solution?

as well said as anyone could say it. i'm not trying to be confrontational -- i'm just sick of the whole thing.

those are the two best options, but since we know we won't do the first (and we shouldn't), and Bush refuses to do the latter...we are just going to keep spinning our wheels and getting people killed until someone steps up and brings them home.

[MinnSkinny]

My point............exactly. And let's hope we do it soon.

[hoovesupsideyourhead]

i e d....thats fair..

[Downthestretch55]

Real costs:
http://www.alternet.org/waroniraq/46161/

[GenuineRisk]

[quote=MinnSkinny]

Originally Posted by GenuineRisk

I have no axes to grind here, but this isn't about high ground. This is about the lives of our kids. We cannot continue to spend the human capital of hundreds or thousands of young Americans over there, when we have no chance of changing the mindset of the general population. I do not see a viable solution now, and I don't see one on the horizon either, so my point is, let's either win ugly or withdraw.
What is your solution?

So the lives of the Iraqis lost in a "win dirty" mean less than dirt to you? We invaded, we underfunded and understaffed Bush's private folly and now that we did all of that, tough sh*t, Iraqi women and children, we're going to blow you up, torture and rape you, because better that we win dirty on your blood and limbs than one more American who voluntarily enlisted in the army die doing what he or she knew was a risk when he or she signed up? Do you even think these people are human, or do you think they're not?

Actually, your use of "towel-head" answers that question for me.

Hey, MinnSkinny, where do you stand-- rape is a tactic of war as old as war. Would you support American men raping Iraqi women to intimidate the men? Is that appropriate? How about raping children? What, exactly, do you think the soldiers should be doing that the presence of CNN is keeping them from doing? Tell me, would you support our soldiers raping women and children? That's a very effective win dirty tactic. Would you support it? Where is your line?

What I think we should or shouldn't do doesn't matter two sh*ts, because Bush is clearly continuing to ignore the advice of the biggest experts in the world, so why would what I think matter? Our boys and girls are going to continue to die until January of '09, and then most Americans will conveniently forget who put us in war, and only blame the poor sap who takes over the Oval Office. I'm sure, if it's a Dem, that Republicans will loooove the opportunity to paint the Dems as losing another war. Vietnam started under Eisenhower and ended under... Nixon? Or Ford? But somehow, it was only the Dems' fault.

Sigh. I hate this war, and I hate that 3000 young men and women will never go home and that tens of thousands more have gone home blind, missing limbs, deaf, attached to a plastic bag for the rest of their lives, etc. And that hundreds of thousands of Iraqis are dead and hundreds of thousands more also blind, crippled, deaf, etc. And I don't mean to be yelling like it's your or anyone else's fault, MinnSkinny, (with the exception of Messrs Bush and Cheney, whom I hope will meet those souls who have died in the past 3 years when they themselves pass on, old men, safe in their beds, and they can tell them then if the "threat" of WMDs was worth it). But, for all the attacks I get about liberals being moral relativists, I can tell you torture is wrong. Winning at any cost is wrong if it is done with torture and rape and abuse. And no cause will ever make it right. And if CNN's presence is really stopping the soldiers from doing some things, then it's because they know, on some level, that those things are wrong.

I apologize for sounding harsh, MS- it's not you; it's this horrible mess Bush got us into. But torture wrong. Always wrong. Never right.

[brianwspencer]

GR,

That was beautiful. As much as I sometimes fancy my own writing skills, I could not have said it better with three days to think about it.

[GenuineRisk]

Thanks, brian, but rereading it, I need to clarify something that was part of something I later cut out because I'm longwinded enough--

I'm not saying I think "tough noogies; you signed up for it" about our soldiers over there (looking at my comments about voluntary enlistment). I still think we were deliberately misled into war by this Administration because they really thought they could pull this off and win before their lies caught up with them. And I think our army works hard, and quite frankly, is not well-paid for what they do or well-supported when they return from war. And I think while enlisting is voluntary, that the men and women who enlist believe that our government would never send them into danger unless there were no other alternative. And I think this administratin willfully sent them into danger and death without reason, and I think that was a huge breach of faith with the military. And a huge breach of humanity and humility on the part of the President and Vice President.

[dr. fager]

Only I issue I take that rape is a tactic of modern war. I think it's an insult to the men and women that serve us. but I'll definitely check with my future father in law and brother in law. One was a linquist in Vietnam and one was a Marine. I'll ask them how rape class was in basic training.

Now am I naive that it hasn't happened in every war? No, however I don't believe that in modern war it's instructed or ordered. War is ugly....it changes people.

Also the adopt a soldier site, that you yourself posted on here, I saw several entries asking for candy for the children....a lot of men and women who do have compassion for the Iraqi people. But I guess if you saw the release on the real Iraq plan Shock, Awe, & Rape...I'll take your word on it.

[Downthestretch55]

GR,
Thanks for saying it again and again.
You are spot on!
Others use racist names, just like during Vietnam days the indigenous people were called "gooks".
When anyone dehumanizes his fellow human inhabitants on this planet, it only demonstrates the justification for abhorent policies and actions.
If any war monger reads this, please answer only one question so as to demonstrate your intelligence, define the word "victory".
Thank you. Also, facts, not personal attacks.

[Cajungator26]

Sorry, GR, but I'm with Bill on this...

Who are you to assume that our soldiers are rapists? Please inform me as to where you're getting that information. My father served in Vietnam and he never ONCE touched a Vietnamese woman or child.

[Downthestretch55]

Originally Posted by Cajungator26

Sorry, GR, but I'm with Bill on this...

Who are you to assume that our soldiers are rapists? Please inform me as to where you're getting that information. My father served in Vietnam and he never ONCE touched a Vietnamese woman or child.

Cajun,
I really like you as a person.
Have you heard about Haditha?
I also know much about Vietnam. Try Mei Li, Medina, Calley.
Google will do.
"Victory"? Anyone????
DTS

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by dr. fager

Only I issue I take that rape is a tactic of modern war. I think it's an insult to the men and women that serve us. but I'll definitely check with my future father in law and brother in law. One was a linquist in Vietnam and one was a Marine. I'll ask them how rape class was in basic training.

......

But I guess if you saw the release on the real Iraq plan Shock, Awe, & Rape...I'll take your word on it.

Originally Posted by Cajungator26

Sorry, GR, but I'm with Bill on this...

Who are you to assume that our soldiers are rapists? Please inform me as to where you're getting that information. My father served in Vietnam and he never ONCE touched a Vietnamese woman or child.

Let's not pretend it doesn't still happen, and let's not pretend that it doesn't happen at the hands of American troops.

Nobody here has ever said that American soldiers are inhumane or that they have no compassion for Iraqi women, children, or anyone else. Nobody here has said, or insinuated in any way, that American soldiers are generally rapists. By and large, American soldiers are heroes in every sense of the word.

But they aren't all perfect, and it's not wrong to point it out.

I didn't even have to scroll down the page at google.com to find this gem for you: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/...n1789544.shtml

[Cajungator26]

Originally Posted by brianwspencer

Let's not pretend it doesn't still happen, and let's not pretend that it doesn't happen at the hands of American troops.

Nobody here has ever said that American soldiers are inhumane or that they have no compassion for Iraqi women, children, or anyone else. Nobody here has said, or insinuated in any way, that American soldiers are generally rapists. By and large, American soldiers are heroes in every sense of the word.

But they aren't all perfect, and it's not wrong to point it out.

I didn't even have to scroll down the page at google.com to find this gem for you: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/...n1789544.shtml

Of course it happens! It happens here all of the time, but guess what, it's not a tactic of war. While I'm at it, let me point out to you that Orlando has one of the highest murder and rape rates in the country. Is that a tactic of war too? I just think that to word it the way it was worded was inaccurate...

[dr. fager]

Originally Posted by dr. fager

Now am I naive that it hasn't happened in every war? No, however I don't believe that in modern war it's instructed or ordered. War is ugly....it changes people.

Brian, I clearly did say it occurs...however a tactic of war? It's an awful thing that definitely occurs....but I for one do think it's the minority and not the majority.

and you edit out the part of my post that says that?

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by dr. fager

but I for one do think it's the minority and not the majority.

So does everyone else here, as far as I can tell -- so I'm not sure why everyone is getting all defensive and accusing people of insinuating that all American soldiers are rapists...

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by dr. fager

Brian, I clearly did say it occurs...however a tactic of war?

Originally Posted by Cajungator26

Of course it happens! It happens here all of the time, but guess what, it's not a tactic of war. While I'm at it, let me point out to you that Orlando has one of the highest murder and rape rates in the country. Is that a tactic of war too? I just think that to word it the way it was worded was inaccurate...

Sudan.

[dr. fager]

Originally Posted by GenuineRisk

Hey, MinnSkinny, where do you stand-- rape is a tactic of war as old as war. Would you support American men raping Iraqi women to intimidate the men? Is that appropriate? How about raping children? What, exactly, do you think the soldiers should be doing that the presence of CNN is keeping them from doing? Tell me, would you support our soldiers raping women and children? That's a very effective win dirty tactic. Would you support it? Where is your line?

maybe I didn't comprehend correctly....I guess she was saying would it be ok if we won at that cost....but boy it's close, that first sentence got me. there is the insinuation that CNN is keeping the soldiers morality in check as regards to rape at the end.

Sorry GR...I guess that SAT's are better kicked a in the math, however didn't do so well in the English

[GenuineRisk]

Originally Posted by dr. fager

maybe I didn't comprehend correctly....I guess she was saying would it be ok if we won at that cost....but boy it's close, that first sentence got me. there is the insinuation that CNN is keeping the soldiers morality in check as regards to rape at the end.

Sorry GR...I guess that SAT's are better kicked a in the math, however didn't do so well in the English

Hey, Dr. Fager-- thanks for this post; I was all set to hit "reply" and say, "Dudes! That's not what I'm saying!" and then I read your post I quote here. I was trying to say, what does do anything to win mean? Does it mean the poster advocating it is okay with rape? Torture? Abuse? Where's the line? If it's win dirty, there isn't one. It's easy to say we should win dirty or get out, but harder when we really think about what exactly winning dirty might mean. Judging from how angry fellow DTers got at even the implication that American soldiers might be raping Iraqis (other than that one case of those three or four American soldiers charged with raping that 14-year-old Iraqi girl, I don't know of any, by the way), I take that to mean that for all of the chest-beating of "win at any cost" the actual nuts and bolts of it horrify people, and that's a good thing; it should. Because some things are not okay to do in war, no matter what the cause.

Of course rape is not a tactic of, for want of a better word, civilized war. Because rape is not okay. But it has happened in virtually every assault of one people on another. Because it's effective at terrorizing and demoralizing the side under assault. It works-- look at women who, decades later, are still traumatized by it. Now, be that woman's husband. If you could stop that happening to her, even by surrender, would you? Which is more important to you, your government or your wife?

No, most American soldiers would never stoop to such tactics, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't still have rules about combat and capture and treatment of prisoners that we follow no matter what the other side is doing, or whether the news cameras are on or not. Whatever Bush's idiotic, Oedipal reasons for starting this nightmare may have been (not that I'm biased or anything), it's turning into a clash of an Islamic, faith-based culture against a Western, secular (kinda)- based one. And if we are to ever have any hope of persuading the average man or woman living in a repressive regime that West is Best, then we MUST, MUST take the high road, even in war. We must not torture, we must not abuse, we must make it clear that we value human life, all human life. Because if we don't, they will see no difference between us and them, and we truly are big, bad invaders.

Dr. Fager-- I bet you did fine on your verbal SATs- when I posted, I thought, I bet a lot of people misinterpret this statement, but I thought, well, let's see how they react. And, thankfully, they got upset and angry at the suggestion of American soldiers raping Iraqis. I don't think anyone posted with, "Hey, if it helps demoralize the opposition, go ahead, attack those women" or anything like that. Indicating that, words aside, most of us still believe in taking the high road in war or otherwise.