2021 Eclipse Award Ballot & Discussion

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by Kasept

Was honestly a terrible division for these purposes. As I explain yearly, the top tab is the only one that matters. Would have put him first with win at Arlington because I'm hardly bowled over by Yibir. Then flip-flopped between Domestic Spending & Space Blues for 2nd. Was going to have Smooth Like Strait 3rd no matter what as an acknowledgement of his complete, high quality campaign.

A "complete, high quality campaign" where he mostly lost. Let's be honest, you are showing favoritism towards Michael McCarthy. I have the greatest respect for him as well, but it's hard to place him third for top trainer, and you should own it.

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

A "complete, high quality campaign" where he mostly lost. Let's be honest, you are showing favoritism towards Michael McCarthy. I have the greatest respect for him as well, but it's hard to place him third for top trainer, and you should own it.

That's a curious critique from the voice that rightly advises players to not be overly results-oriented. I frequently use the 3rd place slot to show appreciation for candidates that won't have the numbers of perennial finalists Brown, Asmussen, Cox, Pletcher & Baffert. McCarthy became apparent to me as worth a nod when I realized he'd landed Ce Ce and Smooth Like Strait on my ballot. I own it happily. And isn't the whole exercise about merit-based favoritism?

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by Kasept

That's a curious critique from the voice that rightly advises players to not be overly results-oriented. I frequently use the 3rd place slot to show appreciation for candidates that won't have the numbers of perennial finalists Brown, Asmussen, Cox, Pletcher & Baffert. McCarthy became apparent to me as worth a nod when I realized he'd landed Ce Ce and Smooth Like Strait on my ballot. I own it happily. And isn't the whole exercise about merit-based favoritism?

There is a giant difference between handicapping and deciding awards. Maybe you should have Hot Rod Charlie ahead of Essential Quality because he ran a better race in the Belmont. Was Life as Good deserving of top Sprinter over Jackie's Warrior? He ran a better race in the Allen Jerkens. Smooth Like Strait, he was far and away my biggest bet BC weekend, had an absolute dream setup in the BC Mile....and still lost, yet somehow you have him third best turf horse, over a multiple Grade 1 winner, who ran a huge race to dead heat in the Turf Classic on Derby Day, despite an impossible trip, crushed in the Manhattan in arguably the single best performance all year in that division, and then almost overcame absurd conditions at Arlington. Apparently none of that matters when you can reward Smooth Like Strait, a very nice horse with not a great deal of overall accomplishments in 2021. Don't compare this to being result oriented, because in Domestic Spending's case, you have a clearly superior horse with more actual accomplishments.

[knickslions2]

I’m not a big awards guy in any sport so really don’t weigh in much on this. However Domestic Spending is a nice horse but a horse only running 3 races in a whole year should not be on any ballot.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by knickslions2

I’m not a big awards guy in any sport so really don’t weigh in much on this. However Domestic Spending is a nice horse but a horse only running 3 races in a whole year should not be on any ballot.

So Yibir is out too I guess.

[knickslions2]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

So Yibir is out too I guess.

I don’t who should be there but at least the horse ran 8 times even though it was not all in US. To use basketball reference Jordan should have been mvp every year but if he only played half a season I wouldn’t vote for him. 3 races doesn’t deserve any award in my opinion.

[Dahoss]

Originally Posted by knickslions2

I don’t who should be there but at least the horse ran 8 times even though it was not all in US. To use basketball reference Jordan should have been mvp every year but if he only played half a season I wouldn’t vote for him. 3 races doesn’t deserve any award in my opinion.

If this were 20 years ago I’d agree with you. Abbreviated campaigns are a reality.

Where is your sweet spot on number of starts? Is 4 award worthy?

I haven’t put a whole lot of thought into it, but looking at what each of the finalists accomplished, Domestic Spending’s resume is as good as any in that division. He didn’t show up often, but he made it count when he did.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by knickslions2

I don’t who should be there but at least the horse ran 8 times even though it was not all in US. To use basketball reference Jordan should have been mvp every year but if he only played half a season I wouldn’t vote for him. 3 races doesn’t deserve any award in my opinion.

I can understand this position but it goes against history. Many horses have been named champions off of only one race in this country. Many people forget that not only was Arazi named 2yo champion but he was also one of the three finalists for HOY in 1991 and that was with only one race in this country. People forget that Singspiel was voted champion turf horse in 1996 and never won a race in the United States. So with history to look back on, rewarding horses that only run here once is ok. I’ve always believed that the awards should come with more qualifying criteria, chief among them being number of starts in this country. But until that day comes, the ballots say that in order to be qualified, you only need one start in North America (unless it’s been changed and I’m unaware), and it makes it so subjective. Is it the “best” horse? Is it the most accomplished horse? Is it the horse that had the best and most complete season?

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by Kasept

That's a curious critique from the voice that rightly advises players to not be overly results-oriented. I frequently use the 3rd place slot to show appreciation for candidates that won't have the numbers of perennial finalists Brown, Asmussen, Cox, Pletcher & Baffert. McCarthy became apparent to me as worth a nod when I realized he'd landed Ce Ce and Smooth Like Strait on my ballot. I own it happily. And isn't the whole exercise about merit-based favoritism?

Here's something else....honestly, which performance was more impressive....Space Blues in the Mile or Domestic in EITHER the Turf Classic or Manhattan?

It's hard to argue against this year's Mile being historically weak AND the first two had dream trips. Steve, two of your top three in the division didn't even run the best race in the BC ( that would be Ivar since you seem to have forgotten ). Suddenly, I guess, you're being result oriented.