3 year old Champion

RolloTomasi · #1 11-11-2021, 07:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by King Glorious

Ok. If you want to convince yourself that the Belmont is the race trainers are shooting for and not the Derby, I can’t stop you.

It is your fantasy that the trainer was training the horse substantially different for certain races in his campaign. Following that line of fantasy, doesn't it make fantastical sense that--given the LOSS IN THE DERBY and the anticipated STALLION CAREER of a champion son of TAPIT--that they would likely go ALL IN in the Belmont Stakes? Maybe there's some semi-objective way to figure out if any of that is even partially true. Anyone know in which race Essential Quality registered his highest Beyer Speed Figure?

I wonder if the connections of say Easy Goer or A.P. Indy did anything different with their horses ahead of the Belmont after they lost or were held out of the Kentucky Derby?

At any rate, I'm not trying to convince myself of anything; certainly none of the nonsense that you posted above.

Quote:

If you think the BC Classic was an afterthought, a sort of “well, he’s bouncing off the walls so we might as well enter him somewhere to get the edge off him” kind of race since he had already won the Travers, which was his real main objective, go ahead.

More disingenuous filth. Did I say the BC Classic was an afterthought? No.

I suggested that the horse was past his peak (you know, because some industry participants actually care about ALL prestigious races during the year rather than focusing solely on some bloated nonsense conducted in circus fashion at the end of every year).

You are way over the top with this "real main objective" BS. If you really believe class horses are only able to put in one good race a year then you are part of the problem. The hilarious part is that Medina Spirit with his losing record won only one "real main objective" during the year (and lost several non-"real main objectives") and wasn't even able to clear a post-race test. And yet he's your champion...

...although to be fair he certainly fits with your past 2 "real" HOYs.

King Glorious · #2 11-12-2021, 09:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

It is your fantasy that the trainer was training the horse substantially different for certain races in his campaign. Following that line of fantasy, doesn't it make fantastical sense that--given the LOSS IN THE DERBY and the anticipated STALLION CAREER of a champion son of TAPIT--that they would likely go ALL IN in the Belmont Stakes? Maybe there's some semi-objective way to figure out if any of that is even partially true. Anyone know in which race Essential Quality registered his highest Beyer Speed Figure?

I wonder if the connections of say Easy Goer or A.P. Indy did anything different with their horses ahead of the Belmont after they lost or were held out of the Kentucky Derby?

At any rate, I'm not trying to convince myself of anything; certainly none of the nonsense that you posted above.

More disingenuous filth. Did I say the BC Classic was an afterthought? No.

I suggested that the horse was past his peak (you know, because some industry participants actually care about ALL prestigious races during the year rather than focusing solely on some bloated nonsense conducted in circus fashion at the end of every year).

You are way over the top with this "real main objective" BS. If you really believe class horses are only able to put in one good race a year then you are part of the problem. The hilarious part is that Medina Spirit with his losing record won only one "real main objective" during the year (and lost several non-"real main objectives") and wasn't even able to clear a post-race test. And yet he's your champion...

...although to be fair he certainly fits with your past 2 "real" HOYs.

Don’t know where you got it from but Medina’s Spirit was not my choice for top 3yo. That would be Life is Good. Essential Quality would be second.

King Glorious · #3 11-12-2021, 09:57 AM

Also, don’t know where you got that I said they can only put in one good race a year. But I do know that trainers don’t train their horses to peak in lesser races when the bigger ones are their main objectives. Like I said, if you believe he was as cranked and prepared for the Southwest as he was for the Derby, we have nothing else to talk about on this subject.

Dahoss · #4 11-12-2021, 10:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by King Glorious

Also, don’t know where you got that I said they can only put in one good race a year. But I do know that trainers don’t train their horses to peak in lesser races when the bigger ones are their main objectives. Like I said, if you believe he was as cranked and prepared for the Southwest as he was for the Derby, we have nothing else to talk about on this subject.

Isn't the point (that he has repeated a few times now) that you're speculating on what races he was "cranked" for? Sure, Cox probably targeted the Derby and Classic, but I can't imagine training horses is as simple as just targeting races and tightening the screws for the big ones.

Who cares what races he was the most fit for and what races he wasn't? That is all subjective. At the end of the day all that matters is how they performed in said races.

King Glorious · #5 11-12-2021, 08:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dahoss

Isn't the point (that he has repeated a few times now) that you're speculating on what races he was "cranked" for? Sure, Cox probably targeted the Derby and Classic, but I can't imagine training horses is as simple as just targeting races and tightening the screws for the big ones.

Who cares what races he was the most fit for and what races he wasn't? That is all subjective. At the end of the day all that matters is how they performed in said races.

Yes, that is his point but no, I don't agree that it's not worth considering. It's just as with any other sport. You train to peak for the biggest games, the championship level events. The Saints beat the Buccaneers twice in the regular season but Tampa didn't bring Brady there to be at his best for those games. They wanted to peak in the playoffs and when they played NO in the playoffs, Brady won. Maybe you guys believe that if one horse beats the other in the Swale and Holy Bull but then the other horse turns the tables in the Florida Derby and Kentucky Derby, that makes them level. I don't. The latter won the more important races and that carries more weight in my book. I don't think it's realistic to think all races are equal and they want to win all of them equally as bad. So since we all know some races are more important than others, I don't think it's silly to think that a trainer would have their horse more prepared for the more important races and I think that it means something when a horse is set to run their best and they lose when all others are set to run their best too.

Dahoss · #6 11-12-2021, 09:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by King Glorious

Yes, that is his point but no, I don't agree that it's not worth considering. It's just as with any other sport. You train to peak for the biggest games, the championship level events. The Saints beat the Buccaneers twice in the regular season but Tampa didn't bring Brady there to be at his best for those games. They wanted to peak in the playoffs and when they played NO in the playoffs, Brady won. Maybe you guys believe that if one horse beats the other in the Swale and Holy Bull but then the other horse turns the tables in the Florida Derby and Kentucky Derby, that makes them level. I don't. The latter won the more important races and that carries more weight in my book. I don't think it's realistic to think all races are equal and they want to win all of them equally as bad. So since we all know some races are more important than others, I don't think it's silly to think that a trainer would have their horse more prepared for the more important races and I think that it means something when a horse is set to run their best and they lose when all others are set to run their best too.

For a guy who doesn’t view all races as equal you sure aren’t giving much credence to the Belmont, Jim Dandy and Travers. Which is odd because you seem to think the worst running of the Kelso of all time and the worst running of the BC Dirt Mile earned Life Is Good a championship.

Makes perfect sense. Almost as much sense as the football analogy.

RolloTomasi · #7 11-12-2021, 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by King Glorious

Like I said, if you believe he was as cranked and prepared for the Southwest as he was for the Derby, we have nothing else to talk about on this subject.

If you believe Life is Good remotely had anything like a championship campaign, we have nothing else to talk about on this subject. He lost his biggest test of the year (the King's Bishop). The Kelso field might have been worse than any of those exhibition races Forego and Seattle Slew used to launch their campaigns back in the '70s. The Dirt Mile this year looked like it should have been carded at The Downs at Alberqueque. Maybe if he wins the Cigar Mile AND the Malibu you might be on to something.

Mandaloun or Rombauer make more sense than him.

King Glorious · #8 11-12-2021, 08:27 PM

No, I don't believe that Life is Good had a championship campaign. But I do believe that he was by far the most talented and with no other candidate separating themselves in my book, I go with the most talented. If either Essential Quality or Medina's Spirit would have won the Classic, I would have picked that horse.

RolloTomasi · #9 11-12-2021, 09:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by King Glorious

No, I don't believe that Life is Good had a championship campaign. But I do believe that he was by far the most talented and with no other candidate separating themselves in my book, I go with the most talented. If either Essential Quality or Medina's Spirit would have won the Classic, I would have picked that horse.

In what way is Life is Good the most talented 3yo? Because he can run the fastest 6 furlongs (of course Jackie's Warrior was equally as fast if not faster)? Because he's an uncontrollable run-off that has trouble running straight down the stretch? Because he has had the most soundness issues? Because he failed to start in a classic or any route race of consequence?

You have all these grandiose and nitpicky theories of how a horse is trained and what races are most important and yet it all goes out the window because a horse won some second tier races in sensational fashion.

Shouldn't Flightline be your 3yo champion?

Dahoss · #10 11-12-2021, 09:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

In what way is Life is Good the most talented 3yo? Because he can run the fastest 6 furlongs (of course Jackie's Warrior was equally as fast if not faster)? Because he's an uncontrollable run-off that has trouble running straight down the stretch? Because he has had the most soundness issues? Because he failed to start in a classic or any route race of consequence?

You have all these grandiose and nitpicky theories of how a horse is trained and what races are most important and yet it all goes out the window because a horse won some second tier races in sensational fashion.

Shouldn't Flightline be your 3yo champion?

That’s what it all boils down to. The flashier the win, the more credit he gives it. Competition doesn’t matter. Race dynamics don’t matter. Just win by open lengths and you’ve earned a spot in his signature.

blackthroatedwind · #11 11-13-2021, 06:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

Shouldn't Flightline be your 3yo champion?

I was about to ask the same question.

King Glorious · #12 01-08-2022, 08:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

In what way is Life is Good the most talented 3yo? Because he can run the fastest 6 furlongs (of course Jackie's Warrior was equally as fast if not faster)? Because he's an uncontrollable run-off that has trouble running straight down the stretch? Because he has had the most soundness issues? Because he failed to start in a classic or any route race of consequence?

You have all these grandiose and nitpicky theories of how a horse is trained and what races are most important and yet it all goes out the window because a horse won some second tier races in sensational fashion.

Shouldn't Flightline be your 3yo champion?

I don’t think Flightline should be the 3yo champion but I’d like to ask you if you think he is the best 3yo? Not best resume but best horse?