NTRA Eclipse 50

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

Curious to know where you'd rank Go for Wand among the all-time female runners of the past 50 years? Dirt runners only.

50 years is too far back for me.

But mid-80s going forward what compares to a horse that was as fast as superstar sprinters Very Subtle and Safely Kept in the Test and only 9 days later as fast as Easy Goer was in the Travers when winning the Alabama?

And less than 2 months after that she was nearly as fast as Secretariat was in the Marlboro Cup when winning the Beldame.

Setting or pressing the pace in all 3 of those as well.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

50 years is too far back for me.

But mid-80s going forward what compares to a horse that was as fast as superstar sprinters Very Subtle and Safely Kept in the Test and only 9 days later as fast as Easy Goer was in the Travers when winning the Alabama?

And less than 2 months after that she was nearly as fast as Secretariat was in the Marlboro Cup when winning the Beldame.

Setting or pressing the pace in all 3 of those as well.

Exactly what I say. Ran 1:21 then 2:00 4/5 then 1:45 4/5. Then knowing how good Bayakoa was, Go for Wand ran step for step with her. On the flip side, knowing how good Go for Wand was, I had to elevate Bayakoa higher than I had before.

I have her on top. I have Bayakoa #2.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

Exactly what I say. Ran 1:21 then 2:00 4/5 then 1:45 4/5. Then knowing how good Bayakoa was, Go for Wand ran step for step with her. On the flip side, knowing how good Go for Wand was, I had to elevate Bayakoa higher than I had before.

I have her on top. I have Bayakoa #2.

I was always impressed with Riboletta's transition to NY after running the table through the Winter/Spring/Summer in California. Put away an in-form Beautiful Pleasure easily in a very fast Beldame of her own.

She came out of the BC injured and I suppose the loss takes her off the all-timers list, but that was some run of victories oddly punctuated by a misstep on the grass at Golden Gate Fields.

[Dahoss]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

Exactly what I say. Ran 1:21 then 2:00 4/5 then 1:45 4/5. Then knowing how good Bayakoa was, Go for Wand ran step for step with her. On the flip side, knowing how good Go for Wand was, I had to elevate Bayakoa higher than I had before.

I have her on top. I have Bayakoa #2.

Off topic but I just saw your updated signature. Gamine as HOY this year? I’d be interested in hearing an explanation on how you see Acorn, Test and BC Filly and Mare Sprint earns a horse HOY.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by Dahoss

Off topic but I just saw your updated signature. Gamine as HOY this year? I’d be interested in hearing an explanation on how you see Acorn, Test and BC Filly and Mare Sprint earns a horse HOY.

My first option is to always go with the horse that I think is the best horse during the year. Then I look at resumes. If the best horse and horse with the best resume aren't the same horse, I try to look and see who has the biggest advantage. For example, Authentic had a really good year. Had he won that Preakness, I'd give it to him. But his resume to me wasn't much better than Gamine's and I think she's the better horse.

In 2005, I thought Ghostzapper was the clear best horse to run in this country even though it was only one race. In my mind, the precedent has been set many times over with giving a horse a championship based on one race in this country. Singspiel won an Eclipse and never actually won a race in the United States. But if Arazi can be a HOY finaiist off of one race, so can Ghostzapper. I was very tempted to give it to St. Liam that year because his resume was much better but in the end, I decided that Ghostzapper was just so much clear the best horse that I went with him.

In the end, it's not an exact science so I flipped a coin.

[Dahoss]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

My first option is to always go with the horse that I think is the best horse during the year. Then I look at resumes. If the best horse and horse with the best resume aren't the same horse, I try to look and see who has the biggest advantage. For example, Authentic had a really good year. Had he won that Preakness, I'd give it to him. But his resume to me wasn't much better than Gamine's and I think she's the better horse.

In 2005, I thought Ghostzapper was the clear best horse to run in this country even though it was only one race. In my mind, the precedent has been set many times over with giving a horse a championship based on one race in this country. Singspiel won an Eclipse and never actually won a race in the United States. But if Arazi can be a HOY finaiist off of one race, so can Ghostzapper. I was very tempted to give it to St. Liam that year because his resume was much better but in the end, I decided that Ghostzapper was just so much clear the best horse that I went with him.

In the end, it's not an exact science so I flipped a coin.

Obviously it’s not an exact science and if you said she was the best sprinter I think you might have an argument. How about Swiss Skydiver? She was over the top in the Breeders Cup but had beaten Gamine before that. Her resume was much better.

And if it’s “best” horse what about Nashville? He’s been absolutely brilliant. I know you love you some Gamine but she ran 3 really good races, two good races and had two medication overages. She’s not even 3 year old filly of the year, let alone HOY.

[King Glorious]

Nashville is an interesting horse. I think he could be in the conversation for best horse and I'm really looking forward to the Malibu Stakes later this month. But his resume won't come close to being good enough.

I don't discriminate against sprinters. I actually think that in an era where the vast majority of races are eight furlongs and under and looking at who the main sires are, it's harder to dominate shorter races than it is longer races. The pool of good runners is deeper, I think. Most people give more credit to the horses that do better at the classic distances and I get that. I just don't agree with it. I think if you tell me that the race is 9f, I'm picking Swiss Skydiver to beat her. Anything under that and I'm picking Gamine. I think Gamine has a much better chance of beating Swiss Skydiver at 9f than the other way around.

Having said that, if Swiss Skydiver had finished better in the BC, i would have agreed with her as champion 3yo because her resume would have been enough to overcome what I thought was Gamine's brilliance.

[Dahoss]

She just wasn’t brilliant the one time they ran against Swiss Skydiver.

I’m giving you a hard time but if Nashville doesn’t cut it due to resume how does Gamine get it over Swiss Skydiver in your eyes?

Ones resume was much better than the other

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

I don't discriminate against sprinters. I actually think that in an era where the vast majority of races are eight furlongs and under and looking at who the main sires are, it's harder to dominate shorter races than it is longer races. The pool of good runners is deeper, I think.

That sounds all good in theory but that's not the reality as far as Gamine's campaign goes. She faced fields of 6, 7, and 8 horses in her big wins. Furthermore, despite the notion that American breeding is geared toward speed, Gamine was left untouched early in the Acorn and her main pace rival in the Test was thwarted by a hammerlock from her rider down the backstretch. Gamine also had the run of the race in the Kentucky Oaks yet failed to even threaten to break the race open, never mind capitalize on the ideal setup and win.

She faced a grand total of 7 different Grade 1 winners all year, beating 5 of those.

Most people give more credit to the horses that do better at the classic distances and I get that. I just don't agree with it. I think if you tell me that the race is 9f, I'm picking Swiss Skydiver to beat her. Anything under that and I'm picking Gamine. I think Gamine has a much better chance of beating Swiss Skydiver at 9f than the other way around.

You down play the versatility of Swiss Skydiver. The pace numbers for several of her route races were high and she was in the mix or setting the fractions in the majority of those. On the Beyer scale she ran slightly faster (while hounding the same pace rival Gamine later faced in the Test) than Gamine at Oaklawn over 8.5 furlongs in early May...and she wasn't subsequently disqualified. Swiss Skydiver absolutely crushed going 7 furlongs in her debut.

And if history tells us anything, middle distance horses absolutely terrorize sprinters at 7 furlongs more often than not (see the 1991 Deputy Minister replay I posted a couple of weeks back or the history of the Malibu and the La Brea)...at least in a full field on a fair racetrack.