American Pharoah...

[3kings]

Originally Posted by bare it all

Husband was watching me with me pointed out down the stretch that the jock was whacking away on Pharoah and the jock on Firing Line wasn't smacking his horse near as much. Kind of hard to explain it really.

I'll explain it for you. Some horses need more urging than others to keep to the task at hand. Let's start a new thread about the "whacking" so those who realize it's part of the game and it doesn't hurt the horses don't have to filter through this crap again.

[bare it all]

Originally Posted by 3kings

I'll explain it for you. Some horses need more urging than others to keep to the task at hand. Let's start a new thread about the "whacking" so those who realize it's part of the game and it doesn't hurt the horses don't have to filter through this crap again.

No need to get snarky. I'm fine with the whip and understand why it's there. What you said - that's more or less what I told him - just that the horse was probably wasn't used to a horse coming up on him and needed extra urging. You can call it what you want, but to someone who is just watching a sport that is very new for them, it's whacking, regardless of if it hurts the animal or not. Visually, it's not something a neophyte likes to see or understands. It IS hard to explain this part (crop/whip) part of the sport when there is a stark contrast in the urging of the two final competitors coming to the wire.

[blackthroatedwind]

So American Pharoah, who we were told has three or four gears, and can run as fast as need be to win ( essentially ) any race, needed 32 stings of the whip to run ( effectively ) the same race he ran in Arkansas?

American Pharoah got a dream trip to win the Derby by three quarters of a length over a horse that didn't change leads in the stretch. The pre-race BS about this horse was completely exposed.

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

So American Pharoah, who we were told has three or four gears, and can run as fast as need be to win ( essentially ) any race, needed 32 stings of the whip to run ( effectively ) the same race he ran in Arkansas?

American Pharoah got a dream trip to win the Derby by three quarters of a length over a horse that didn't change leads in the stretch. The pre-race BS about this horse was completely exposed.

Will this horse get Orb like hype in the next two weeks?

They seem similar to me in ways.

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up

Will this horse get Orb like hype in the next two weeks?

They seem similar to me in ways.

Comparing Orb to AP is ridiculous.

[ninetoone]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

Comparing AP to Seattle Slew is ridiculous.

FTFY

[MaTH716]

I find it amazing that Espinoza worked out a trip from the 18 hole, where he was able to stay wide and not take any dirt to the face. That 5 trips in a row where he's been clear and clean.

[pointman]

Originally Posted by MaTH716

I find it amazing that Espinoza worked out a trip from the 18 hole, where he was able to stay wide and not take any dirt to the face. That 5 trips in a row where he's been clear and clean.

He has put in some terrific rides in the TC races and is almost certain to be over bet in next year's Derby like Borel has been.

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

Comparing Orb to AP is ridiculous.

Why?

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up

Why?

A better question is how you can compare Orb to AP.

What possible similarities do they have besides winning the Derby?

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

So American Pharoah, who we were told has three or four gears, and can run as fast as need be to win ( essentially ) any race, needed 32 stings of the whip to run ( effectively ) the same race he ran in Arkansas?

American Pharoah got a dream trip to win the Derby by three quarters of a length over a horse that didn't change leads in the stretch. The pre-race BS about this horse was completely exposed.

True, he didn't look as good as the hype portrayed him to be, but to say he was completely exposed is premature.

Hell, I didn't think he was going to win going down the backside.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

True, he didn't look as good as the hype portrayed him to be, but to say he was completely exposed is premature.

Hell, I didn't think he was going to win going down the backside.

I didn't say the horse was completely exposed. I said the over the top hype was completely exposed.

I have never suggested American Pharoah wasn't a good horse. I said that the hype he was generating was not backed up by his on-track performance. The response I usually got was some BS about him displaying mythical qualities in the morning. This was clearly not backed up by his performance in the Derby....which was good, but hardly in the pantheon of great Derby performances.

As far as what he looked like down the backstretch....you are in the minority. Had he been the horse some experts wanted us to believe, he would have won by more, without being hit 32 times.

Quite a few horses, good horses, have followed up Derby wins with far more decisive Preakness performances. It surely possible that American Pharoah could be one of those. We'll see.

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

I didn't say the horse was completely exposed. I said the over the top hype was completely exposed.

I have never suggested American Pharoah wasn't a good horse. I said that the hype he was generating was not backed up by his on-track performance. The response I usually got was some BS about him displaying mythical qualities in the morning. This was clearly not backed up by his performance in the Derby....which was good, but hardly in the pantheon of great Derby performances.

As far as what he looked like down the backstretch....you are in the minority. Had he been the horse some experts wanted us to believe, he would have won by more, without being hit 32 times.

Quite a few horses, good horses, have followed up Derby wins with far more decisive Preakness performances. It surely possible that American Pharoah could be one of those. We'll see.

I just didn't think he was moving as well as he usually does (down the backstretch).

And I am in the minority apparently, and that is often a good thing. I was adamant with DrugS, for instance, that Big Brown wouldn't win the Belmont, and in fact, should be kept out of the race.

The Pharoah is a real difficult horse to get a read on. There are things about him that are awesome, but others that are equally worrying.

[MaTH716]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

I just didn't think he was moving as well as he usually does (down the backstretch).

And I am in the minority apparently, and that is often a good thing. I was adamant with DrugS, for instance, that Big Brown wouldn't win the Belmont, and in fact, should be kept out of the race.

The Pharoah is a real difficult horse to get a read on. There are things about him that are awesome, but others that are equally worrying.

I honestly thought that he was in trouble with a half mile to go. Maybe I just bought into the myth and figured he'd be moving in hand until the top of the lane.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

I just didn't think he was moving as well as he usually does (down the backstretch).

I would presume American Pharaoh would be under at least a little pressure to keep pace with the likes of Dortmund and Firing Line, who picked it up a bit from the 1/2 mile fraction to the 3/4 fraction.

Definitely not the same as chasing Bridget's Big Luvy anyways.

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

I didn't say the horse was completely exposed. I said the over the top hype was completely exposed.

I have never suggested American Pharoah wasn't a good horse. I said that the hype he was generating was not backed up by his on-track performance. The response I usually got was some BS about him displaying mythical qualities in the morning. This was clearly not backed up by his performance in the Derby....which was good, but hardly in the pantheon of great Derby performances.

As far as what he looked like down the backstretch....you are in the minority. Had he been the horse some experts wanted us to believe, he would have won by more, without being hit 32 times.

Quite a few horses, good horses, have followed up Derby wins with far more decisive Preakness performances. It surely possible that American Pharoah could be one of those. We'll see.

You liking those odds in your last paragraph at say 3/5?

[outofthebox]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

So American Pharoah, who we were told has three or four gears, and can run as fast as need be to win ( essentially ) any race, needed 32 stings of the whip to run ( effectively ) the same race he ran in Arkansas?

American Pharoah got a dream trip to win the Derby by three quarters of a length over a horse that didn't change leads in the stretch. The pre-race BS about this horse was completely exposed.

Can't remember where i read this, but Doug S. was preaching to everyone that would listed that just because a horse is winning easy like AP did in Arkansas, doesn't mean he will have another gear when asked hard. Compared it to his evaluation of Officer winning all those races geared down, then having nothing more when faced with adversity in the BC Juvenile. He was spot on.

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by outofthebox

Can't remember where i read this, but Doug S. was preaching to everyone that would listed that just because a horse is winning easy like AP did in Arkansas, doesn't mean he will have another gear when asked hard. Compared it to his evaluation of Officer winning all those races geared down, then having nothing more when faced with adversity in the BC Juvenile. He was spot on.

That is often a complete fallacy, but not always.

We've all seen horses get asked by the jock and respond by speeding up.

We've all seen horses having to gear down because of traffic trouble, break free and explode.

There is little difference between those two scenarios and one in which a horse going easy then getting asked for more.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by outofthebox

Can't remember where i read this, but Doug S. was preaching to everyone that would listed that just because a horse is winning easy like AP did in Arkansas, doesn't mean he will have another gear when asked hard. Compared it to his evaluation of Officer winning all those races geared down, then having nothing more when faced with adversity in the BC Juvenile. He was spot on.

it's true that horses might not have more than what they had. who knows, ap might not have prevailed had the jock not worked on him down the stretch.
but horses don't necessarily have to be encouraged. when they hit their stride, good luck.
for instance, dr fager when he broke the mile record. secretariat when he coasted in the belmont. and then some horses quit when they get out front...buckpassers moves had to be timed just right.

[dellinger63]

Originally Posted by Danzig

it's true that horses might not have more than what they had. who knows, ap might not have prevailed had the jock not worked on him down the stretch.

And maybe if Firing Line had been given a crack when prompted to switch leads he would have and this thread would have been titled Firing Line.