Kellyn Gorder - buh bye for 14 months

[Cannon Shell]

There is next to zero chance that anyone especially a trainer in the position that Gorder is in would knowingly or intentionally give their horse meth.

The idea that a street drug, especially Meth in the state of KY (meth capital of the US) , found at the picogram level wouldn't be the result of contamination is the hard to believe part.

It is close to impossible to police your horses 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. It is extremely hard to eliminate all human contact from your horses.
At the picogram level the horse could be contaminated by almost any contact. A maintenance worker from the track pees in the receiving barn stall after fixing a broken light bulb or cleaning the stall. A feed company employee. A test barn employee. Someone at the lab. Maybe the assistant trainer cashed his check before the race ad didnt wash his hands before putting on the tongue tie?

All sound a bit far fetched but a whole lot less far fetched than Gorder intentionally giving a first time in a year starter meth.
I'm amazed that people actually think that any viable trainer would try that.

The fact is that being a trainer nowdays is a nightmare. The rules are never actually spelled out for us, we virtually have no rights regardless of whether we are actually at fault, if we win too much we are suspicious, if we dont win enough we are clueless...

Often we arent getting paid for our services yet because a live animal is the the middle of this we have to keep on taking care of it to the best of our abilities or we are the bad guys. When a terrible incident like this happens despite it likely being completely out of our control, the internet judge and juries convict us instantly and we are blamed for the demise of racing and the euros disdain for our racing (they dont seem to like the NFL too much and they dont seem to worried).

Say you loan your car to your 17 year old kid to go to the mall. He picks up some of his friends and maybe one of those friends is a little shady and has a little bag of meth that he hides in the glove compartment when no one is looking. Now you get in the car and get pulled over for speeding and when you open the glove compartment out drop the little bag of meth that you had no idea was there. Cops arrest you for possession. Are you really a criminal?

[RHT2004]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

There is next to zero chance that anyone especially a trainer in the position that Gorder is in would knowingly or intentionally give their horse meth.

The idea that a street drug, especially Meth in the state of KY (meth capital of the US) , found at the picogram level wouldn't be the result of contamination is the hard to believe part.

It is close to impossible to police your horses 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. It is extremely hard to eliminate all human contact from your horses.
At the picogram level the horse could be contaminated by almost any contact. A maintenance worker from the track pees in the receiving barn stall after fixing a broken light bulb or cleaning the stall. A feed company employee. A test barn employee. Someone at the lab. Maybe the assistant trainer cashed his check before the race ad didnt wash his hands before putting on the tongue tie?

All sound a bit far fetched but a whole lot less far fetched than Gorder intentionally giving a fist time starter meth.
I'm amazed that people actually think that any viable trainer would try that.

The fact is that being a trainer nowdays is a nightmare. The rules are never actually spelled out for us, we virtually have no rights regardless of whether we are actually at fault, if we win too much we are suspicious, if we dont win enough we are clueless...

Often we arent getting paid for our services yet because a live animal is the the middle of this we have to keep on taking care of it to the best of our abilities or we are the bad guys. When a terrible incident like this happens despite it likely being completely out of our control, the internet judge and juries convict us instantly and we are blamed for the demise of racing and the euros disdain for our racing (they dont seem to like the NFL too much and they dont seem to worried).

Say you loan your car to your 17 year old kid to go to the mall. He picks up some of his friends and maybe one of those friends is a little shady and has a little bag of meth that he hides in the glove compartment when no one is looking. Now you get in the car and get pulled over for speeding and when you open the glove compartment out drop the little bag of meth that you had no idea was there. Cops arrest you for possession. Are you really a criminal?

Makings lots of sense Chuck.

[Rudeboyelvis]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

There is next to zero chance that anyone especially a trainer in the position that Gorder is in would knowingly or intentionally give their horse meth.

The idea that a street drug, especially Meth in the state of KY (meth capital of the US) , found at the picogram level wouldn't be the result of contamination is the hard to believe part.

It is close to impossible to police your horses 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. It is extremely hard to eliminate all human contact from your horses.
At the picogram level the horse could be contaminated by almost any contact. A maintenance worker from the track pees in the receiving barn stall after fixing a broken light bulb or cleaning the stall. A feed company employee. A test barn employee. Someone at the lab. Maybe the assistant trainer cashed his check before the race ad didnt wash his hands before putting on the tongue tie?

All sound a bit far fetched but a whole lot less far fetched than Gorder intentionally giving a fist time starter meth.
I'm amazed that people actually think that any viable trainer would try that.

The fact is that being a trainer nowdays is a nightmare. The rules are never actually spelled out for us, we virtually have no rights regardless of whether we are actually at fault, if we win too much we are suspicious, if we dont win enough we are clueless...

Often we arent getting paid for our services yet because a live animal is the the middle of this we have to keep on taking care of it to the best of our abilities or we are the bad guys. When a terrible incident like this happens despite it likely being completely out of our control, the internet judge and juries convict us instantly and we are blamed for the demise of racing and the euros disdain for our racing (they dont seem to like the NFL too much and they dont seem to worried).

Say you loan your car to your 17 year old kid to go to the mall. He picks up some of his friends and maybe one of those friends is a little shady and has a little bag of meth that he hides in the glove compartment when no one is looking. Now you get in the car and get pulled over for speeding and when you open the glove compartment out drop the little bag of meth that you had no idea was there. Cops arrest you for possession. Are you really a criminal?

Chuck, unless you and Steve are privy to some information that isn't spelled out in the Steward's Ruling, then I don't know why this minimum picogram amount keeps getting brought up, and hypotheticals about a meth-head stall mucker's comb falling into a pile of hay, which got disturbed at the precise moment that the pee cup was deployed, and by osmosis precisely 21 picograms of crystal meth flew into the pee cup - I don't buy it for a second.

It isn't like it's odd that a trainer - perhaps predisposed to taking a edge, or perhaps pressured by an owner to get his firster home, with the promise of more/better stock- would use meth.
It's essentially speed - it increases heart rate, adrenalin, etc. which enhances performance; Zilpaterol abuse has been a problem in New Mexico until they started suspending everyone caught using it for 3 years (Gorder should count his blessings).

He got caught using a Class A substance. Period. It really doesn't matter if he's been getting away with it for 1, 3 or 10 years, or if this was the first time. And it doesn't matter that it wasn't cobra venom or frog juice. And it really doesn't matter that he's an affable guy, rather than a douche-bag.

It was a class A substance, and let's knock the BS off - was given to the horse by someone in his barn. Someone needs to be held accountable, and it's his barn.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Rudeboyelvis

Chuck, unless you and Steve are privy to some information that isn't spelled out in the Steward's Ruling, then I don't know why this minimum picogram amount keeps getting brought up, and hypotheticals about a meth-head stall mucker's comb falling into a pile of hay, which got disturbed at the precise moment that the pee cup was deployed, and by osmosis precisely 21 picograms of crystal meth flew into the pee cup - I don't buy it for a second.

It isn't like it's odd that a trainer - perhaps predisposed to taking a edge, or perhaps pressured by an owner to get his firster home, with the promise of more/better stock- would use meth.
It's essentially speed - it increases heart rate, adrenalin, etc. which enhances performance; Zilpaterol abuse has been a problem in New Mexico until they started suspending everyone caught using it for 3 years (Gorder should count his blessings).

He got caught using a Class A substance. Period. It really doesn't matter if he's been getting away with it for 1, 3 or 10 years, or if this was the first time. And it doesn't matter that it wasn't cobra venom or frog juice. And it really doesn't matter that he's an affable guy, rather than a douche-bag.

It was a class A substance, and let's knock the BS off - was given to the horse by someone in his barn. Someone needs to be held accountable, and it's his barn.

Your premise is so idiotic that I probably shouldnt bother responding.

He didnt get caught using anything. His horses urine tested positive for a minute amount of an illicit drug that isnt used on animals but by drug addicts. There is basically no chance that he gave this to his horse on purpose. That you seem unable to understand difference is baffling.

Not to mention that detection causes the positive test, not detection at levels that could affect performance. Simple detection. Of course most people screaming for blood won't bother noting that.

I feel badly for someone I barely even know because I am 99.9% sure that he had zero idea that meth was ever in that horse and his business is going to be destroyed, his reputation is being dragged through the mud and he will likely incur a huge amount of legal fees. From here on whenever he has a runner do well or has a streak of a few winners in a row the internet geniuses will be whispering "maybe he is using the meth again". It is a scarlet letter that he almost assuredly doesnt deserve.

What is scary is that I have trained about the same amount of years and have a pretty similar record in terms of lack of medication violations and this could happen to me just as easily.

[Cannon Shell]

How would one acquire meth to give to a horse? How would you know its actually meth? How would you know its purity? How would you know how much to give and when to give it? Do meth labs give out handbooks on horse doping?

[Calzone Lord]

Here's what I know about Kellyn Gorder:

* He has a profitable lifetime ROI with his dirt horses.

* He has a profitable lifetime ROI with his turf horses.

His strength is without routers off of an extended freshening:

Route Races, 31-to-60 day layoff: 79-for-342 (23% wins) 25% profit per dollar bet.


Route Races, 61-to-100 day layoff: 18-for-96 (19% wins) 69% profit per dollar bet.


But, he's not bad with Routers off of a 7 day or less layoff, either:

9-for-37 with an insane $6.55 ROI


Also, his stats have fallen off this year.

Through 2014:

Dirt: 806 starts - 23% wins - $2.13 ROI
Turf: 337 starts - 15% wins - $2.35 ROI


2015 stats: 12-for-106 (11% wins) - $1.27 ROI

[Jay Frederick]

Originally Posted by Calzone Lord

Here's what I know about Kellyn Gorder:

* He has a profitable lifetime ROI with his dirt horses.

* He has a profitable lifetime ROI with his turf horses.

His strength is without routers off of an extended freshening:

Route Races, 31-to-60 day layoff: 79-for-342 (23% wins) 25% profit per dollar bet.


Route Races, 61-to-100 day layoff: 18-for-96 (19% wins) 69% profit per dollar bet.


But, he's not bad with Routers off of a 7 day or less layoff, either:

9-for-37 with an insane $6.55 ROI


Also, his stats have fallen off this year.

Through 2014:

Dirt: 806 starts - 23% wins - $2.13 ROI
Turf: 337 starts - 15% wins - $2.35 ROI


2015 stats: 12-for-106 (11% wins) - $1.27 ROI

Wonder why his stats have fallen off this year. Must be another one of those strange horse racing coincidences.

[pointman]

Originally Posted by Jay Frederick

Wonder why his stats have fallen off this year. Must be another one of those strange horse racing coincidences.

Contamination?

[outofthebox]

Originally Posted by Jay Frederick

Wonder why his stats have fallen off this year. Must be another one of those strange horse racing coincidences.

My stats have fell off this year. Certainly i haven't changed anything. The crop of babies i got last year haven't panned out. Some horses break their maidens and get stuck at the next level. Could be he just doesn't have the same stock this year. I know i don't.

[Rudeboyelvis]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

How would one acquire meth to give to a horse? How would you know its actually meth? How would you know its purity? How would you know how much to give and when to give it? Do meth labs give out handbooks on horse doping?

May want to check with the three guys in New Mexico that got suspended for using it - they've may possibly have compared notes - they've had 3 years to do so, anyway.

[Cannon Shell]

The reports said 22 picograms was the level.

You can rant all you want but it doesnt change the reality that this guy probably is getting labeled and punished for something he didnt do.

[Rudeboyelvis]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

The reports said 22 picograms was the level.

You can rant all you want but it doesnt change the reality that this guy probably is getting labeled and punished for something he didnt do.

Here is the ruling from the KHRC -

http://khrc.ky.gov/Rulings/150050.pdf


it makes no mention of the level detected - if that's available someplace for public consumption, that'd been real helpful, and gone a long way... Thanks.

[ADJMK]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

The reports said 22 picograms was the level.

You can rant all you want but it doesnt change the reality that this guy probably is getting labeled and punished for something he didnt do.

I agree with everything you say Chuck. unfortunately not everyone here has a real clue what goes on in the backstretch.
No trainer would use Meth as a means to win a race and not expect to get caught. Cheaters know how to find stuff that is not being tested for.

If it wasn't from contamination, a possible scenario is someone in the backstretch blew some meth up the horses nose and probably cashed a bet. Unfortunately the trainer takes the rap.

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

How would one acquire meth to give to a horse? How would you know its actually meth? How would you know its purity? How would you know how much to give and when to give it? Do meth labs give out handbooks on horse doping?

I'm not doubting you for a second, but I do have to ask if nobody gives meth to horses, why are they testing for meth?

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

I'm not doubting you for a second, but I do have to ask if nobody gives meth to horses, why are they testing for meth?

isn't it a form of 'speed'. just like adhd meds, that they test athletes for?

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Danzig

isn't it a form of 'speed'. just like adhd meds, that they test athletes for?

The only things I know about Meth come from viewing the entire run of Breaking Bad three times.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

I'm not doubting you for a second, but I do have to ask if nobody gives meth to horses, why are they testing for meth?

It is on the list of substances that can enhance performance. KY tests for a lot more than other states do. I'm pretty sure that every drug on the list gets tested for at some point.

I didn't say that no trainer would give meth to horses, just no viable, successful trainer. There are trainers that run horses at various venues that I wouldnt rule out doing or giving anything to a horse.

[Rudeboyelvis]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Your premise is so idiotic that I probably shouldnt bother responding.

Thanks for taking the time. We idiots (bettors) appreciate it when the Know-All's take a moment to remind us how in the dark we always are. It makes all that money we wa....errr.....wager.... seem so less important when some one "In the know" talks down to us.

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

He didnt get caught using anything. His horses urine tested positive for a minute amount of an illicit drug that isnt used on animals but by drug addicts. There is basically no chance that he gave this to his horse on purpose. That you seem unable to understand difference is baffling.

Ummm... yeah he did. You can play a game of semantics all you'd like, but at the end of the day a horse in his charge, tested positive for a stimulant, principally methamphetamine - which can and does affect a horse in the same way it affects every other mammal that ingests it.

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Not to mention that detection causes the positive test, not detection at levels that could affect performance. Simple detection. Of course most people screaming for blood won't bother noting that.

Ok - so by simply testing a sample for it, it makes it positive - yet you have no idea what the amount detected in the lab tests were. You are blindly assuming it's a borderline false-positive without any substantiation. Ok, again, I get it.

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

I feel badly for someone I barely even know because I am 99.9% sure that he had zero idea that meth was ever in that horse and his business is going to be destroyed, his reputation is being dragged through the mud and he will likely incur a huge amount of legal fees. From here on whenever he has a runner do well or has a streak of a few winners in a row the internet geniuses will be whispering "maybe he is using the meth again". It is a scarlet letter that he almost assuredly doesnt deserve.

You don't know him, but you're 99.9% he was railroaded. That is certainly open minded. But then so is this assertion that his test was a borderline positive that was triggered by the test itself, without, again, any substantiation.

You know who I feel badly for? The people that day in and day out keep the sport in business - even in the face of absurd takeout rates, jockeys that intractably put horses in inexplicable and untenable positions, stewards that regularly make a mockery of their responsibilities, and the ever present alchemists, who run up ticket costs by forcing inclusion based on whether they have their "program" working or not.

And then the best part of it all is having to endure the barrage of condescension from the "Insiders" as to how all of it is perfectly acceptable.

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

What is scary is that I have trained about the same amount of years and have a pretty similar record in terms of lack of medication violations and this could happen to me just as easily.

I somehow highly doubt that.

[Calzone Lord]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

What is scary is that I have trained about the same amount of years and have a pretty similar record in terms of lack of medication violations and this could happen to me just as easily.

But it didn't happen to you.

The guy could've run a tighter ship.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Calzone Lord

But it didn't happen to you.

The guy could've run a tighter ship.

Bullshit. You cant control everything. You cant know what your help is doing on a day to day basis when they arent at work. You cant control the other employees of the track or state testing barn or those who do mundane jobs where your horse may be exposed to including the pony boy or gate crew guy. Contact with anyone of those people, a guy who is on meth peeing in the stall, etc can trigger a positive at an extremely low level. The amount of a substance that needs to get into a horse is extremely low. They dont need to eat a meth sandwich to have 22 picograms show.

Dr Barker of LSU did a study on environmental contamination on the backside of the FG and found that horses could come into contact with levels of drugs virtually everywhere.

http://www.thehorse.com/articles/236...-at-racetracks