Frankel

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by Mawhip

King Glorious is right on here.

Kingie, you'll always be one of my favorite "characters," but in the 7 years we've been posting on the same boards together, this may be the first time I've ever seen someone write this.

[King Glorious]

Especially on this forum. Even though I'm often wrong, as is everyone else, when I am right, people on here are afraid to say so for fear it would get them in trouble with the mean girls.

[Indian Charlie]

Ah, now you've martyred yourself.

Awesome.

[RolloTomasi]

Isn't Frankel the horse that nearly got rundown by Zoffany a few weeks ago?

He did pound the hell out of Canford Cliffs, though. A horse that is slightly better than Rip Van Winkle. They probably should have tossed in a pacemaker for him.

All the "great" milers, from Brigadier Gerard to Miesque to Goldikova ventured out for an extra furlong or two during their campaigns. When's he going to do something like that? Likely never, as nowadays they have those "new" Group 1s like the Queen Anne and Lockinge Stakes to shoot for. Next year I predict: the Euro version of Zenyatta.

Frankel clearly has chinks in his armor. Sea The Stars would have leveled him at any distance (as he did RVW and current staying sensation Fame And Glory). Of course, he'd have only gotten the chance to do it at 8f.

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

Isn't Frankel the horse that nearly got rundown by Zoffany a few weeks ago?

He did pound the hell out of Canford Cliffs, though. A horse that is slightly better than Rip Van Winkle. They probably should have tossed in a pacemaker for him.

All the "great" milers, from Brigadier Gerard to Miesque to Goldikova ventured out for an extra furlong or two during their campaigns. When's he going to do something like that? Likely never, as nowadays they have those "new" Group 1s like the Queen Anne and Lockinge Stakes to shoot for. Next year I predict: the Euro version of Zenyatta.

Frankel clearly has chinks in his armor. Sea The Stars would have leveled him at any distance (as he did RVW and current staying sensation Fame And Glory). Of course, he'd have only gotten the chance to do it at 8f.

I can think of others as well, based on what I've seen, that I think would have beaten Frankel.

Hell, a totally healthy Uncle Mo, if he was equally capable on grass (I know, I know, he's likely done), I think Frankel would have had a big disadvantage going against a horse with Mo's ability and style.

How on Earth could Frankel possibly have handled Dubai Millenium?

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

I can think of others as well, based on what I've seen, that I think would have beaten Frankel.

Hell, a totally healthy Uncle Mo, if he was equally capable on grass (I know, I know, he's likely done), I think Frankel would have had a big disadvantage going against a horse with Mo's ability and style.

How on Earth could Frankel possibly have handled Dubai Millenium?

I don't like how Frankel has essentially "snuck" his way into the pantheon of greatness, after spending most of this season ducking major races (Epsom Derby, Eclipse, etc.), failing to display stamina of any sort, and showing the obvious limitations to his unbridled running style, simply by mauling Canford Cliffs in a 4-horse field.

This was a horse that was essentially conceded the Epsom Derby after his Dewhurst win at 2. Funny that his connections didn't even make the attempt.

Yeah, Henry Cecil knows a great horse when he sees one. He also knows a very limited horse when he sees one.

[OTM Al]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

Well, to be fair, some of the great Euro runners of the past excelled doing both. Look at two of their most recent "superhorses" in Zarkava and Sea the Stars. Both were good enough to win grade ones at 8f and also win the Arc the same year. In fact, Zarkava was not only good enough to win a grade one at 8f but she beat Goldikova while doing it. He can continue to dominate at a mile and maybe go down as one of the best milers ever but I think that in order to join the conversation as best ever period, he's going to have to show an ability to do a little more than just run miles.

To be clear, I don't think he is as good as advertised and certainly not even the best Euro I've seen in the past 2 or 3 years. However, I always love to hear this "best ever" criteria. Horses that run the shorter distances never can be best ever because they don't run at the middle distances, but middle distance runners can be the best ever without running the shorter distances. And I guess stayers and long distances are right out. Versitility is a trait of a great horse to be sure, but it seems to be applied only in one direction.

[Mawhip]

I would say Frankel could win races from 6F to 10F at the highest level if his connections give him the chance. I do think he would be vulnerable going 12F but I don't think that disqualifies him for the title of being one of the best.

[NTamm1215]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

I can think of others as well, based on what I've seen, that I think would have beaten Frankel.

Hell, a totally healthy Uncle Mo, if he was equally capable on grass (I know, I know, he's likely done), I think Frankel would have had a big disadvantage going against a horse with Mo's ability and style.

How on Earth could Frankel possibly have handled Dubai Millenium?

Even the most unabashed Uncle Mo fan should be realistic enough to know that Frankel would destroy him.

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by NTamm1215

Even the most unabashed Uncle Mo fan should be realistic enough to know that Frankel would destroy him.

IF, and these are big ifs, granted, but if Mo had no physical issues and took to grass as well as dirt, I'd say there's no freaking way on Earth Frankel destroys him.

In fact, based on what I've seen from Frankel, it's likely if those two faced each other going a mile on turf (again, Mo would have to be the same horse he was), Mo would run Frankel into submission.

Yeah, sure, if Frankel got 2 going 48.3, he would be tough, but if they went head to head in a quick pace duel, Frankel wouldn't finish in the same zip code.

You should go watch Frankel's previous race. That race is very telling, and unlike most people, I think making the jockey the scapegoat for that performance is ridiculous.

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by NTamm1215

Even the most unabashed Uncle Mo fan should be realistic enough to know that Frankel would destroy him.

And by the way, I may be a fan of Uncle Mo, but I'm pretty realistic about his abilities. Do I think he is (or was) far superior to the rest of this crop? Yes. Do I think he's the best 2-3 year old of the last xx years? No.

Frankel as one of the top three milers of the last century? Now that what I call unrealistic. If he were to hook some of the faster milers in recent history (by faster I mean high quality milers with great early speed), he'd be toast.

[NTamm1215]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

IF, and these are big ifs, granted, but if Mo had no physical issues and took to grass as well as dirt, I'd say there's no freaking way on Earth Frankel destroys him.

In fact, based on what I've seen from Frankel, it's likely if those two faced each other going a mile on turf (again, Mo would have to be the same horse he was), Mo would run Frankel into submission.

Yeah, sure, if Frankel got 2 going 48.3, he would be tough, but if they went head to head in a quick pace duel, Frankel wouldn't finish in the same zip code.

You should go watch Frankel's previous race. That race is very telling, and unlike most people, I think making the jockey the scapegoat for that performance is ridiculous.

You are admittedly someone who doesn't wager on racing anymore and whose opinions are based primarily on progeny of Indian Charlie, Indian Charlie himself and your friend who owns Lubash. Your thinking is so one-dimensional when it comes to any of those topics that it's futile to even dispute it.

I am quite familiar with Frankel's last race. Maintaining an understanding of how races are run is essential. Turf routes, especially over demanding ground like what they routinely traverse in Europe are rarely won by horses who make decisive moves over a half-mile out. Have you watched Frankel's race at Newmarket? How you could watch that and think there's even a chance in hell that "Uncle Mo could run Frankel into submission" is baffling.

I've never called Frankel one of the best...of anything. He is simply a VERY good horse who has passed every test with flying colors. It's obvious that he's developing steadily and has a turn of foot that makes him very tough to beat when he has a tactical advantage. Comparing him to a dirt horse who is currently laid up, was a horrible 3rd in his only graded stakes try of 2011, and is trying to regain 2YO form is silly.

You know what's funny and few are bringing it up. Overdriven's first two starts have been just as good if not better than Uncle Mo's and he has faced MUCH better horses.

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by NTamm1215

You are admittedly someone who doesn't wager on racing anymore and whose opinions are based primarily on progeny of Indian Charlie, Indian Charlie himself and your friend who owns Lubash. Your thinking is so one-dimensional when it comes to any of those topics that it's futile to even dispute it.

Your first part of the first sentence in this post is the only accurate statement you make.

While certainly a huge fan of IC, and that I do root for his progeny, your assessment of my opinions is a gross exaggeration. I'd like you to name one offspring of his in which I gushed unrealistically about his/her abilities. I'm probably the only person on this board that thought Indian Blessing was a tad bit overrated, in fact.

What does Lubash have to do with anything? You think because I want my friends horse to do well, I think he's some kind of superstar? Try to make some sense here Nick.

As to not betting and my opinions, my opinions were good enough to finish second through fifth a number of times in the TVG fantasy contest (always losing to DrugS however, which I see no shame in). Had the trainer of The Usual QT not switched plans at the last second, I probably would have won the 10k first prize in that other online fantasy contest, and since I didn't use a single offspring of IC, I'm going to boldly say you are full of shid.

Originally Posted by NTamm1215

I am quite familiar with Frankel's last race. Maintaining an understanding of how races are run is essential.

In your case, maintaining an understanding would be impossible, since you'd need an understanding in the first place.

Originally Posted by NTamm1215

Turf routes, especially over demanding ground like what they routinely traverse in Europe are rarely won by horses who make decisive moves over a half-mile out. Have you watched Frankel's race at Newmarket? How you could watch that and think there's even a chance in hell that "Uncle Mo could run Frankel into submission" is baffling.

Yeah, I watched. What's baffling to me is you thinking he's so much more a superior runner than Mo was. Honestly, how do you picture a race in which Frankel 'destroys' Mo? Mo is at least as fast, and certainly has less questions regarding stamina.

Originally Posted by NTamm1215

I've never called Frankel one of the best...of anything. He is simply a VERY good horse who has passed every test with flying colors. It's obvious that he's developing steadily and has a turn of foot that makes him very tough to beat when he has a tactical advantage. Comparing him to a dirt horse who is currently laid up, was a horrible 3rd in his only graded stakes try of 2011, and is trying to regain 2YO form is silly.

I take it back, this last bit is accurate as well. I never did say you called Frankel one of the best ever, but MANY people have, and that's what I was addressing in the first place. Like you, I see him as a VERY good horse that might be potentially great. His turn of foot is awesome, and so far, when he has every possible tactical advantage, he crushes his opposition. When he hasn't had everything go exactly his way, however, he's been less than spectacular.

As for my comparison to Mo, I did acknowledge Mo has his issues, thus, my comparison to Mo was not entirely relevant or useful. I did bring up other horses as well.

My point with Mo was simply to say that purely on the basis of ability, there are horses in this crop of 3yos that I think would have handled him. Let alone horses of the last century.

Originally Posted by NTamm1215

You know what's funny and few are bringing it up. Overdriven's first two starts have been just as good if not better than Uncle Mo's and he has faced MUCH better horses.

You think the Sanford was as impressive as the Champagne? I'm not sure what to make of that.

As for their respective debuts, I'll stick with Mo's as well.

And we'll see how that Henny Hughes that came back to win, we'll see how long he stays around.

[Dahoss]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

Especially on this forum. Even though I'm often wrong, as is everyone else, when I am right, people on here are afraid to say so for fear it would get them in trouble with the mean girls.

What is the last thing you were actually right about?

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by Dahoss

What is the last thing you were actually right about?

He did get Zenyatta right as HOY.

Oh wait, he had Goldi for 2010, and Zen in 2008 and 2009.

I guess Curlin in 07?

[Dahoss]

Count me in with the group that doesn't think Overdriven has been as impressive as Uncle Mo was, but Overdriven is pretty good.

I also think very highly of Frankel, but I truly do not understand the need to label horses immediately after a performance. I get it that this is how the world is now, the internet has enabled EVERYONE to have an opinion on EVERYTHING, and people are prone to throw outlandish comments out to try and compenate for something. But best miler ever? Really?

One more jump 2 back and he gets beat, rider error or not. Maybe eventually he'll run his way to some sort of best ever label, but let's see him do it.

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

I don't like how Frankel has essentially "snuck" his way into the pantheon of greatness, after spending most of this season ducking major races (Epsom Derby, Eclipse, etc.), failing to display stamina of any sort, and showing the obvious limitations to his unbridled running style, simply by mauling Canford Cliffs in a 4-horse field.

This was a horse that was essentially conceded the Epsom Derby after his Dewhurst win at 2. Funny that his connections didn't even make the attempt.

Yeah, Henry Cecil knows a great horse when he sees one. He also knows a very limited horse when he sees one.

Didn't Cecil state earlier in the year the he had designs of the Arc/10-12f est. later in the campaign?

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by freddymo

Didn't Cecil state earlier in the year the he had designs of the Arc/10-12f est. later in the campaign?

I guess that was before he came to the realization that it was going to be very difficult to harness Frankel's speed. I'm just disappointed that he won't even take a shot, even at 10f, instead mapping out an exclusively 8f campaign. It's starting to sound more or more like keeping him unbeaten and maintaining the illusion of invincibility is what matters most to his connections. He's by f'n Galileo for Christ's sake.

Frankel is entered in the Juddmonte International at around 9.5f, so I suppose there's still a chance. But they've moved the 8f Queen Elizabeth II to the same day as the 10f Champion Stakes, so I don't anticipate seeing him stretch out in October.

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

I guess that was before he came to the realization that it was going to be very difficult to harness Frankel's speed. I'm just disappointed that he won't even take a shot, even at 10f, instead mapping out an exclusively 8f campaign. It's starting to sound more or more like keeping him unbeaten and maintaining the illusion of invincibility is what matters most to his connections. He's by f'n Galileo for Christ's sake.

Frankel is entered in the Juddmonte International at around 9.5f, so I suppose there's still a chance. But they've moved the 8f Queen Elizabeth II to the same day as the 10f Champion Stakes, so I don't anticipate seeing him stretch out in October.

Send him to Shug he could throttle back that speed in a flash

[Seattleallstar]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

I can think of others as well, based on what I've seen, that I think would have beaten Frankel.

Hell, a totally healthy Uncle Mo, if he was equally capable on grass (I know, I know, he's likely done), I think Frankel would have had a big disadvantage going against a horse with Mo's ability and style.

How on Earth could Frankel possibly have handled Dubai Millenium?

Hell I wonder if Frankel could handle Hawk Wing or Dubai Destination.