Best 2 year old ever POLL!!!

[POINTGIVEN1985]

favorite trick hands down... this is amazing some of you are saying dont name him, as a 2 yr old he peeked and he beats any of these other horses that are being named, just take a good look at Ironhorse's post.

[Phalaris1913]

Originally Posted by Kasept

Where does that put stablemate Bewitch?

Citation won 28 of his first 30 starts, all but one of which took place during his 2- and 3YO seasons. One of those defeats came in the Chesapeake Trial, a six-furlong prep that was run five days before the Chesapeake in mid-April 1948. It was Arcaro's first ride on the horse and, so goes the story, he did not want to beat the heck out of the horse to win a six-furlong prep race. History tends to treat this as an astonishing upset, forgetting that the winner of the race had a demonstrated affinity for this track, having set a world record winning a stakes race there at 2. The other time Citation was defeated in this span of time came in the 1947 Washington Futurity, a race won by stablemate Bewitch.

It was a blanket 1-2-3 Calumet finish and Bewitch, who was undefeated and winning her eighth straight (and sixth stakes), was considered the stable star 2YO. Citation, at that point, had run in only one stakes event.

Jimmy Jones is supposed to said (years after the fact), "We kind of figured our horses could take the first three places, so we told the riders before the race we'd split the fees three ways between them and whoever was in front should be allowed to win it without anybody whipping anybody to death."

Naturally, all three riders said that their horse could've won easily.

[POINTGIVEN1985]

favorite tricks record as a 2 yr old will never be matched... this post says best 2 yr old. so if its best 2 yr old it has to be him, 2 yr olds these days see the track 5 times tops, thats the good 2 yr olds, most trainers point to the derby, if you see a real good 2 yr old run more then 5 times as a juvenile its rare.

[avance2000]

Originally Posted by POINTGIVEN1985

favorite trick hands down...

i would like for you to explain to me how favorite trick is "hands down" better than Colin. Colin went undefeated as a 2yo with 11 stakes wins. my guess is that you know absolutley nothing about Colin so i would suggest using caution before declaring anyone hands down the best.
your later claim that favorite trick's record will never be matched is equally useless, considering he did not match colin's accomplishments. the thread asked for best 2yo EVER.....not best 2yo in the last 5 minutes. get some historical perspective son.

[POINTGIVEN1985]

ok well i will post only for what i have seen ... i dont have any clue about colin. im 21, i have been going to the track since i was 8 so i will only discuss the last 13 years

[avance2000]

Originally Posted by POINTGIVEN1985

i will only discuss the last 13 years

smart move.

[avance2000]

Originally Posted by Kasept

Colin should probably appear in this thread..

i missed the fact that kasept had already brought this colt up. as i stated earlier, he would get my vote. given the number of stakes races that he won, the fact that he was undefeated, and the fact that he squared off against another very talented juvy named Fair Play multiple times......i think he belongs at the top of any list.

[Phalaris1913]

Originally Posted by POINTGIVEN1985

favorite tricks record as a 2 yr old will never be matched... this post says best 2 yr old. so if its best 2 yr old it has to be him, 2 yr olds these days see the track 5 times tops, thats the good 2 yr olds, most trainers point to the derby, if you see a real good 2 yr old run more then 5 times as a juvenile its rare.

There are any number of horses who won more races, and beat demonstrably better horses in the process, as 2YOs. If you have only been in the sport for a few years, Favorite Trick's campaign stands out - rather like a dim star against a black sky. If you had ever seen a starry night, you'd know that Favorite Trick's accomplishments appear more ordinary in comparison.

The trends you're talking about are not very old and there are plenty of us on this board (who are not fossils) who remember when it was perfectly ordinary for high-class stakes 2YOs to run much more than they do in the 21st century. There are other 2YO champions of the 1990s who ran seven or eight times; that was common in the 1980s and par for the course (or even considered a light campaign) for many decades before that. The pendulum could swing again.

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by Phalaris1913

There are any number of horses who won more races, and beat demonstrably better horses in the process, as 2YOs. If you have only been in the sport for a few years, Favorite Trick's campaign stands out - rather like a dim star against a black sky. If you had ever seen a starry night, you'd know that Favorite Trick's accomplishments appear more ordinary in comparison.

The trends you're talking about are not very old and there are plenty of us on this board (who are not fossils) who remember when it was perfectly ordinary for high-class stakes 2YOs to run much more than they do in the 21st century. There are other 2YO champions of the 1990s who ran seven or eight times; that was common in the 1980s and par for the course (or even considered a light campaign) for many decades before that. The pendulum could swing again.

Phalaris -
Do you have more information on Barbizon?

Also, the crop of 1958 with First Landing and Intenionally was that overall pretty outstanding?

[Thunder Gulch]

Spectacular Bid's only competion was the clocker's watch, which he stopped in record time over and over again.

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by Sightseek

Phalaris -
Do you have more information on Barbizon?

Also, the crop of 1958 with First Landing and Intenionally was that overall pretty outstanding?

Nic,

She has more information on EVERYTHING... Probably the best informed source anywhere...

And '57 was THE crop. Best ever...

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by Kasept

Nic,

She has more information on EVERYTHING... Probably the best informed source anywhere...

And '57 was THE crop. Best ever...

Isn't she amazing?!

[Dunbar]

Originally Posted by Kasept

Nic,

She has more information on EVERYTHING... Probably the best informed source anywhere...

I'm glad to see you say that. I found just about every one of Phalaris's posts at ESPN to be interesting and well-written. Even when being provocative, she was able to put forth her ideas logically, without raising the volume level of a discussion. I hope she posts here more often.

--Dunbar

[MisterB]

Favorite Trick showed that the horse makes the pedigree. Not the pedigree makes the horse. Unlike Big Red, this horse was small, and a speed ball. Had to have more guts to keep the ball rolling. Only Native Dancer had a better record winning 9 of 9 as a juvenile . Since they can never compete, who knows who is better.

Records are only records. Even though Trick amazed many, he was no Big red

[avance2000]

Originally Posted by MisterB

Since they can never compete, who knows who is better.

who knows who is better between native dancer and favorite trick? well.......me for one. the answer is native dancer.

[MisterB]

Originally Posted by avance2000

who knows who is better between native dancer and favorite trick? well.......me for one. the answer is native dancer.

Only 50 years between them

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by Sightseek

Isn't she amazing?!

I'm sure "Phalaris" will not mind some expansion on her identity, as anyone can go to her website (http://www.phalarisproject.com) and see who she is instantly...

Paula Welch Prather is one of the industry's top historical authorities.. period. Her work keeping the American Racing Manual going for DRF is a vitally important contribution to the recording of the game's history, as are so many of her projects and contributions... It's a real pleasure to have her here and contributing when she has time...

Her Bio:

Driven by a desire to be involved in the racing industry, Paula Welch Prather began her career at the Phoenix office of the Daily Racing Form. Starting as a copy editor in 1993, she became the Special Projects Editor in 1996 and served as the de facto librarian and researcher for the venerable publication. Instrumental in producing the Graded Stakes Yearbook from 1995 through 1998, she created the over 16,000 running lines that would appear in the 2000 DRF Press book Champions, a project that was five years in the making.

Paula stayed behind in her home town of Phoenix when the DRF moved to New York, but in late 2003, an opportunity arose for her to join forces once again with the Daily Racing Form to serve as editor of the American Racing Manual. She still proudly serves as the editor of that annual publication.

Paula has served as the US correspondent for the New Zealand Bloodhorse since 1999 and is serving the same role for its new sister publication, the Irish Bloodhorse, which began publication in late 2005. She began helping with the compilation of the bi-monthly magazine of the Arizona Thoroughbred Breeders Association in 2002.

Outside of the racing industry, Paula worked for five years at the Phoenix office of Ticketmaster, where she served in a variety of roles including client services and quality assurance. Given an opportunity to return to an equine publication in 2005, she joined the staff of the Scottsdale, Arizona-based Saddlebred magazine The National Horseman in the role of traffic coordinator.

In the spring of 2006, Paula and her husband, Barry, moved to New Mexico, a relocation which offered more physical accommodation for the library and an opportunity to be available for full-time work in the racing industry.

A December 1992 graduate of the Race Track Industry Program at the University of Arizona in Tucson, Paula is a member of Gamma Sigma Delta, the honor society of the college of agriculture. Prior to transferring to the University of Arizona in order to take part in the RTIP, she completed three years of work in journalism at Arizona State University.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by MisterB

Favorite Trick showed that the horse makes the pedigree. Not the pedigree makes the horse. Unlike Big Red, this horse was small, and a speed ball. Had to have more guts to keep the ball rolling. Only Native Dancer had a better record winning 9 of 9 as a juvenile . Since they can never compete, who knows who is better.

Records are only records. Even though Trick amazed many, he was no Big red

If you have a list that doesn't have Native Dancer in the top 2 of all time great 2 year olds then you need to familiarize your self with the Grey Ghost.

I said top 2 because he may not have been the best but he certainly shouldn't be worse than 2nd.

[MisterB]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

If you have a list that doesn't have Native Dancer in the top 2 of all time great 2 year olds then you need to familiarize your self with the Grey Ghost.

I said top 2 because he may not have been the best but he certainly shouldn't be worse than 2nd.

Agreed

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

If you have a list that doesn't have Native Dancer in the top 2 of all time great 2 year olds then you need to familiarize your self with the Grey Ghost.

I said top 2 because he may not have been the best but he certainly shouldn't be worse than 2nd.

I guess Man o war would have to be considered also.