If you called the shots on Rags to Riches.......

[phystech]

Given my own personal financial situation - I'd sell her and try to find another one (or 10) to have more fun with.

[ateamstupid]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

Test-Alabama-Ruffian-Jockey Club Gold Cup-BC Distaff-retire.

The way Pletcher's barn is holding together, the gut-wrenching stretch duel with Curlin, the ominous stumble at the start, and the probable presence of solid fillies with equally stamina-laden pedigrees (Christmas Kid and Boca Grande), all make her somewhat vulnerable in the 10f CCA Oaks. And if she loses that, she's likely to be retired immediately.

Losing the Test won't mean anything, would showcase her versatility if she won, and at the very least would be a great tune-up for the late season campaign.

Why on earth would you run her in a prep for the BC against males, then run her against females on BC day?

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

Why on earth would you run her in a prep for the BC against males, then run her against females on BC day?

for that matter, why would she retire immediately if she lost the ccao?? not like her value will be affected, no stud fee, and they sure aren't gonna sell.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

Why on earth would you run her in a prep for the BC against males, then run her against females on BC day?

Well, first off, the JC Gold Cup is not a "prep" for the BC Classic. That sort of attitude is one of the main reasons why the overall quality of racing has dropped considerably in the last decade (another reason being the dominance of the breeding side of the sport).

Secondly, the JC Gold Cup is sure to be a weak event given all the recent retirements, the lack of depth in the division, and the recent trend of giving horses several weeks off prior to the BC. It would be the easiest spot to get a second win against males, this time versus elders. I can't remember the last time a 3yo filly defeated older males in the States.

Lots of females defeated males in the heart of the season and still ran in the Distaff (eg Personal Ensign, Serena's Song, Lady's Secret, Winning Colors, etc).

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by Danzig

for that matter, why would she retire immediately if she lost the ccao?? not like her value will be affected, no stud fee, and they sure aren't gonna sell.

I didn't mean it as a business decision. If she lost the CCA Oaks it would probably mean there was something wrong with her, which wouldn't be shocking given the history of the barn she runs out of.

[NTamm1215]

There is absolutely no comparison between Rags to Riches and either Boca Grande or Christmas Kid when it comes to distance. Rags has made it clear she can go a long way (and she can do it quickly) the latter two want no part of anything over a mile, maybe a mile and an eighth for Boca Grande.

NT

[ateamstupid]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

Well, first off, the JC Gold Cup is not a "prep" for the BC Classic. That sort of attitude is one of the main reasons why the overall quality of racing has dropped considerably in the last decade (another reason being the dominance of the breeding side of the sport).

Secondly, the JC Gold Cup is sure to be a weak event given all the recent retirements, the lack of depth in the division, and the recent trend of giving horses several weeks off prior to the BC. It would be the easiest spot to get a second win against males, this time versus elders. I can't remember the last time a 3yo filly defeated older males in the States.

Lots of females defeated males in the heart of the season and still ran in the Distaff (eg Personal Ensign, Serena's Song, Lady's Secret, Winning Colors, etc).

It most certainly is a prep for the BC Classic. Anyone who thinks otherwise is kidding themselves. And I don't understand how the JCGC becoming a prep has anything to do with the lessening quality of racing.. All that happened is one race which used to be the destination has become the stepping stone to an even more prestigious destination. That's why racing sucks now? Because something has become more prestigious than the JCGC and reduced it to mainly a prep for something larger? I don't see the correlation.

Secondly, it just doesn't make a bunch of sense to jump in and face elder males, then if she wins, jump back in to face fillies and mares she's already proven she's faster than. If she's good enough to win the JCGC, she's probably too good for the BC Distaff and would be better suited for the Classic. Of course, if you're just trying to get an easy check..

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by NTamm1215

There is absolutely no comparison between Rags to Riches and either Boca Grande or Christmas Kid when it comes to distance. Rags has made it clear she can go a long way (and she can do it quickly) the latter two want no part of anything over a mile, maybe a mile and an eighth for Boca Grande.

NT

Certainly I don't think those two fillies are in the same league as Rags To Riches, but they are stakes quality fillies and were RTR to falter in the race, I would guess one of those two would be the beneficiary.

As far as getting 10f, I was basing it mostly on pedigree. Christmas Kid, like RTR, is by a Belmont winner and has a bottom side filled with stakes winners at 9f or more albeit mostly on turf. Boca Grande, also by AP Indy, is closely related to Sky Beauty and Maplejinsky on the bottom, each a winner of the Alabama with the former also taking the CCA Oaks.

Either way, I don't see how you can say neither wants anything beyond a mile. Both are Grade 2 winners at 9f.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

And I don't understand how the JCGC becoming a prep has anything to do with the lessening quality of racing.. All that happened is one race which used to be the destination has become the stepping stone to an even more prestigious destination. That's why racing sucks now? Because something has become more prestigious than the JCGC and reduced it to mainly a prep for something larger? I don't see the correlation.

Well, the mentality amongst many trainers and owners nowadays is that the BC is the only important event of the year (aside from the Triple Crown). That's why statements like "we'll give him one or two more starts before the Breeder's Cup" can be heard in post-race interviews as early as March. The drive towards a single race late in the year has led to conservative handling to the detriment of the middle of the year and its once prestigious races.

The claim that the BC Classic merely replaces the JCGC as the final top race of the year, is a bit inaccurate. The BC Classic replaces all the fall championship races at Belmont (not to mention other important late season races across the country). The same group of horses used to run in the Whitney-Woodward-Marlboro Cup-JCGC series year in and year out. All of those races have been castrated in terms of distance, field consistency, and field quality. One has outright been eliminated. Analogous situations are apparent in other divisions and at other tracks as well.

I don't know about you, but I'd rather watch these top horses slug it out over the course of a few months and several races to decide who the best horse is as opposed to a single race. Of course, if you're content with Wild Again, Skywalker, Volponi, and Arcangues being BC Classic winners it will be hard to sway your opinion.

While the BC at times should decide a divisional championship, I think in Rags To Riches case, it should merely serve as a showcase for her (like Azeri or Lady's Secret).

[NTamm1215]

Boca Grande won a terrible version of the Demoiselle and I am aware it was a Grade II. Christmas Kid won the Tropical Park Oaks on turf, but that wasn't a grade II. The Davona Dale was at a mile and she won that. The Ashland was 8.5fs and she was steps away from being passed and then most of all she got drowned in the Acorn at a mile. She's a nice filly...at a mile or less in my opinion.

Boca Grande has clearly been a shell of what most thought she'd be after the Demoiselle at the end of the year. To be honest with you I don't think she's a top tier 3YO filly and that will be seen as the year progresses.

I understand your argument was based on pedigree...I just don't see in actuality those two outrunning Rags at 10fs unless she just runs terribly.

NT

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by NTamm1215

Boca Grande won a terrible version of the Demoiselle and I am aware it was a Grade II. Christmas Kid won the Tropical Park Oaks on turf, but that wasn't a grade II. The Davona Dale was at a mile and she won that. The Ashland was 8.5fs and she was steps away from being passed and then most of all she got drowned in the Acorn at a mile. She's a nice filly...at a mile or less in my opinion. I understand your argument was based on pedigree...I just don't see in actuality those two outrunning Rags at 10fs unless she just runs terribly.

NT

Fair enough. I agree RTR would have to take several steps backwards to get beat. And I was mistaken about Christmas Kid, I thought she won the Bonnie Miss at 9f, but she was 2nd, and in fact lost the lead to a horse she had passed at the top of the stretch.

[ateamstupid]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

Well, the mentality amongst many trainers and owners nowadays is that the BC is the only important event of the year (aside from the Triple Crown). That's why statements like "we'll give him one or two more starts before the Breeder's Cup" can be heard in post-race interviews as early as March. The drive towards a single race late in the year has led to conservative handling to the detriment of the middle of the year and its once prestigious races.

The claim that the BC Classic merely replaces the JCGC as the final top race of the year, is a bit inaccurate. The BC Classic replaces all the fall championship races at Belmont (not to mention other important late season races across the country). The same group of horses used to run in the Whitney-Woodward-Marlboro Cup-JCGC series year in and year out. All of those races have been castrated in terms of distance, field consistency, and field quality. One has outright been eliminated. Analogous situations are apparent in other divisions and at other tracks as well.

I don't know about you, but I'd rather watch these top horses slug it out over the course of a few months and several races to decide who the best horse is as opposed to a single race. Of course, if you're content with Wild Again, Skywalker, Volponi, and Arcangues being BC Classic winners it will be hard to sway your opinion.

I understand your point, but the bottom line is that owners nowadays are so petrified of losing with their good horses that there would never be a situation in which the "top horses slug it out over the course of a few months," BC or no BC. What the BC does is ENSURE that everyone has to face everyone else eventually, if only for one day, and that's a positive, not a negative. You really think that without the BC, we'd see the top older males facing each other over and over in each Grade I all year long? I don't. I think we'd see the top five or six horses constantly ducking each other in order to get the easiest G-I wins available. The BC says "hey, if you want the ultimate accolades, you've gotta face everyone eventually," and if that relegates the JCGC to a prep race, so be it. That's not ruining racing, it's improving it.

[letswastemoney]

I'd retire Rags to Riches and keep her as my pet horse

That would piss off the whole industry probably lol.

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

I understand your point, but the bottom line is that owners nowadays are so petrified of losing with their good horses that there would never be a situation in which the "top horses slug it out over the course of a few months," BC or no BC. What the BC does is ENSURE that everyone has to face everyone else eventually, if only for one day, and that's a positive, not a negative. You really think that without the BC, we'd see the top older males facing each other over and over in each Grade I all year long? I don't. I think we'd see the top five or six horses constantly ducking each other in order to get the easiest G-I wins available. The BC says "hey, if you want the ultimate accolades, you've gotta face everyone eventually," and if that relegates the JCGC to a prep race, so be it. That's not ruining racing, it's improving it.

Another reason why they're ducking is, in part, due to the purses on most of the major races not going up. I honestly believe if that tracks would double their purses of their major stakes that we would see an increase in the quality of the horses in them, and not these grade 1's that are pretty much glorified grade 3's.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

What the BC does is ENSURE that everyone has to face everyone else eventually, if only for one day, and that's a positive, not a negative. You really think that without the BC, we'd see the top older males facing each other over and over in each Grade I all year long? I don't. I think we'd see the top five or six horses constantly ducking each other in order to get the easiest G-I wins available. The BC says "hey, if you want the ultimate accolades, you've gotta face everyone eventually," and if that relegates the JCGC to a prep race, so be it. That's not ruining racing, it's improving it.

I think your perspective is valid, but at the same time, its quite possible that the reason why owners are petrified to run their horses is because they want to keep them in one piece so they can make the BC. In that way, the BC would be found to be detrimental. Certainly before '84 there was no problem in getting good horses together for more than one race. Obviously, other factors are involved, such as the creation of numerous alternatives to traditional top races and the purse-bolstering of second tier races, which allow the connections to duck each other. And probably more important, the desire to tailor a racehorse's career with the breeding shed, not the trophy case, in mind (which often dictates a minimum of overall starts so as to maintain peak popularity).

Still, for all its good intentions, BC day itself is starting to get a bit out of hand, trying to get instant credibility for all these forced new races. The ironic part being that whereas the BC has tended to dilute the quality of the rest of the season's important races (because top horses duck each other or skip important starts to await BC day), these new races might end up doing the same to the regular BC races. Its quite possible that the Dirt Mile will hurt both the Sprint and Classic, the Female Sprint will weaken the Sprint, and the Juvenile Turf will draw foreign interest away from the dirt Juvenile.

As far as getting good horses together on a regular basis, I think the ACRS was a better idea, being more flexible to a horse's campaign where things like current form and race setup (distance, track, etc.) would play into where a horse winds up from start to start. Some very good horses are toast by BC day and end up just embarrassing themselves (eg Gentlemen), but are nonetheless pushed to the race because somehow there year is incomplete without a start there.

[King Glorious]

Haskell, Travers, Super Derby, BC Classic

[Mustanada]

Coaching Club, Alabama, something in the fall if she stays glued, BC

That is a possible 4 races. That's alot. Champions are not racing much these days.

Next year......If anything goes amiss in above races we'll most likely not see her again.