Biggest gap between the best horse in a crop and the rest

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Thunder Gulch won a war of attrition. He was not that good.

That may be true or it may not be. But I don't think there is any question that he was by far the dominant 3yo that year. Go through the history books and tell me how many can have wins in the Florida Derby, Fountain of Youth, Travers, Swaps, Kentucky Derby and Preakness. It's a special horse in my book that travel the country and win that many of the best races in his division. U may call it a war of attrition. Who else was as good as he was that year? Timber Country was talented but he was also losing the San Rafael and San Felipe. Afternoon Deelites was a nice horse too. None had the record of Thunder Gulch or the sustained consistency from the start of the year till the end. Well, at least till September.

[ateamstupid]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

And, by the way, on the subject of this thread, it is preposterous to even suggest that horses that never raced past early June of their 3YO seasons ( and this includes Smarty Jones and Afleet Alex ) were distanced from their respective generations. Without knowing if they progressed, or how they stacked up against others in their generations who developed later, it is unfair to place them significantly ahead of their peers.

Take a look at Slew o' Gold, who obviously proved best of his generation, and tell me he was the best horse in early June when Caveat was kicking his azz in the Belmont.

I agree, but I think if Smarty had stuck around, he would've eaten alive those other 3-year-olds in his class all season long.

[blackthroatedwind]

Thunder Gulch, who you seem to think was dominant, was winning photos from Suave Prospect in those Florida races.

Please.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Afleet Alex had lost in each of his first three attempts in route races. He also didn't offer much competition for Bellamy Road in the betting going into the Kentucky Derby---so, he didn't come into the triple crown series far superior to his crop.

He never raced after the triple crown series...so, he wasn't far superior to his crop after the triple crown series.

He was, by far, the dominant horse in his crops triple crown series...his domination was awfully short lived though.

Spectacular Bid is obviously the most dominant horse in his crop to race in the last 30 years.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Thunder Gulch, who you seem to think was dominant, was winning photos from Suave Prospect in those Florida races.

Please.

1988, the Lakers won the NBA title four games to three over the Pistons. In the series, the Pistons actually outscored the Lakers by 18 total points. That year, the Lakers won 4-3 over Utah, 4-3 over Dallas, and 4-3 over Detroit. Pushed to the limit in all three series.

2000, the Lakers won the NBA title four games to two over the Pacers. In the series, the Pacers actually outscored the Lakers by 11 total points.

2002, the Lakers won the Western Conference finals four games to three over the Kings. In the series, the Lakers won their games by 7, 4, 1 and 2 points. The Kings actually outscored the Lakers by two total points.

1978, Affirmed won the Derby by 1 1/2 lengths, the Preakness by a neck, and the Belmont by a head.

Maybe I'm not making any point at all. The one I am trying to make though is that in each of those instances, the one that needed to find that extra when it counted most, got it done. I like to see dominating performances but I don't feel it's necessary to win by 20 points a game or by ten lengths to prove your dominance. If u get it done everytime it counts, or the vast majority of the times, to me, u are the clear leader. Where was Suave Prospect in the finals? While Barbaro was seemingly having his hands full with Sharp Humor and Great Point in the prelims, where were those horses when it counted the most?

[blackthroatedwind]

Aside from how bad the analogy was, the Lakers beat the Pistons on a horrendous late game call against Bill Lambeer in game six, and the fact that Isiah Thomas twisted his ankle in that same game, and was well below his game for the deciding game.

If you want to stick to that analogy, then you have proven how weak your argument for Thunder Gulch was, as no horse can be considered dominent simply because lucky breaks fell their way.

Thunder Gulch was a nice horse. Star Standard was second in his Belmont.

[Danzig]

sunday silence--any horse that can beat easy goer, three times, has to be clearly the best of his generation!

but really, i think it's the bid as well--that was a good crop, but he was so much the best.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Thunder Gulch was a nice horse. Star Standard was second in his Belmont.

I don't remember the Lakers vs Pistons NBA Finals---so I have nothing to add in that debate---however....Thunder Gulch was the perceived DWL 3rd stringer coming into that years Derby--as Lukas wore his Timber Country hat and his Serena's Song button all week.

The esteemed members of the press talked about the other two Lukas runners and ignored TG all week long. The bettors seemed to follow step to that trend as well.

TG did win the Derby, and I feel was the best horse that day.

He finished behind Oliver's Twist in the Preakness. He won the slowest Belmont I've ever seen---the final time was like 2:32 flat.

And while he also won the Travers, I believe Composer, who would find his way into claiming races later on, was strongly supported and about 7/2 or 4/1 in the betting that day...if my memory isn't going bad on me.

TG certainly won the big races---but, as far as domination goes----I didn't see it.

[Cajungator26]

Originally Posted by Danzig

sunday silence--any horse that can beat easy goer, three times, has to be clearly the best of his generation!

but really, i think it's the bid as well--that was a good crop, but he was so much the best.

I don't think so.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Cajungator26

I don't think so.

you don't think spectacular bid was much the best of his crop?

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by Danzig

you don't think spectacular bid was much the best of his crop?

Cajun is a rabid fan of Flying Paster.

[Cajungator26]

Originally Posted by Danzig

you don't think spectacular bid was much the best of his crop?

Oops. I was thinking you were talking about Sunday Silence still. My mistake...

[Cajungator26]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

Cajun is a rabid fan of Flying Paster.

LOL... no.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Cajungator26

Oops. I was thinking you were talking about Sunday Silence still. My mistake...

lol
i see....

i figured that part of my post would get some reaction!!

[Cajungator26]

Originally Posted by Danzig

lol
i see....

i figured that part of my post would get some reaction!!

EASY GOER! Come on now...

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Cajungator26

EASY GOER! Come on now...

yeah, i liked easy goer too--but sunday silence earned my respect big time. tremendous horse...well, both of them were.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Aside from how bad the analogy was, the Lakers beat the Pistons on a horrendous late game call against Bill Lambeer in game six, and the fact that Isiah Thomas twisted his ankle in that same game, and was well below his game for the deciding game.

If you want to stick to that analogy, then you have proven how weak your argument for Thunder Gulch was, as no horse can be considered dominent simply because lucky breaks fell their way.

Thunder Gulch was a nice horse. Star Standard was second in his Belmont.

Again though, the question isn't how good these horses were in the grand scheme of things. It's how much better were they than what they had to face. For example, say u believe Smarty Jones was an "a" level horse and the next best horse, Lion Heart was "c" level. Well, u may believe Thunder Gulch was "h" level in talent........but if the next best horses were "l", then his gap is bigger.

My argument was never about how great Thunder Gulch was. But when u win that many of those types of races, it's more than just a lucky break or two and things falling your way.

[blackthroatedwind]

Thunder Gulch was neither the best horse of his generation ( whatever level of talent you choose ) nor was he a dominent performer.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Thunder Gulch was neither the best horse of his generation ( whatever level of talent you choose ) nor was he a dominent performer.

In my opinion, he was far and away the best of his generation and proved it over and over again.

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Aside from how bad the analogy was, the Lakers beat the Pistons on a horrendous late game call against Bill Lambeer in game six, and the fact that Isiah Thomas twisted his ankle in that same game, and was well below his game for the deciding game.

Wow. The only bad calls involving bill lambeer are the many no-calls that hack was allowed free passes on!

Thomas was a wussy, spelled with a p.