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[classhandicapper]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

It's not the difference of opinion which causes people to ridicule the diehard Zenyatta fans.

It's the depths of insanity to which they'll sink to defend their position and their absolute refusal to even think that there might be merit in the idea that Zenyatta has been coddled and is not an all time great.

In fact, it's stuff like saying you must hate Zenyatta if you don't think she's an all time great that leads to the most ridicule that they so deservedly have earned.

I've also seen some extreme pro Zenyatta things that made me dizzy . I disagree with most of it.

I have no problem with people that think there are major questions about her ability on dirt or even the quality of horses in CA on synthetic. Obviously the mare division has been atrocious this year.

On occasion though, people say silly things like "she's slow".

In response to that it's possible to supply an endless amount of objective data on average paces, average winning times, the thoughts of multiple figure makers, the paces of her races, and a little common sense to more or less demonstrate that synthetic speed figures don't translate well to dirt. That means you have to go beyond speed figures to discuss her and the quality of performances across surfaces (even though IMO pace and final time figures are still a useful tool).

Some people do an admirable job of that even when I disagree with some of what they have to say.

Some people insist on saying "she's slow" even after presenting all that data etc.... IMHO that is an almost preposterous point of view because we don't know how fast she could run with a legitimate pace. What we know is that if she can run a 104-108 Beyer on synthetic (pre the adjustments Beyer made) with the typical slower synthetic paces, she can probably run a little faster than that with a more legitimate pace (as her entire record hints). Therefore, if she likes dirt as much as synthetic she might be 5 or more points faster on dirt. That's damn fast for a mare.

Beyond that, figure makers like "The Sheets" have her extremely fast.

[knickslions2]

Originally Posted by classhandicapper

I've seen some extreme pro Zenyatta things that make me dizzy . I disagree with most of it. I also have no problem with people that think there are major questions about her ability on dirt or even the quality of horses in CA on synthetic.

On occasion though, people say silly things like "she's slow".

In response to that it's possible to supply an endless amount of objective data on average paces, average winning times, the thoughts of multiple figure makers, the paces of her races, and a little common sense to more or less demonstrate that synthetic figures don't translate well to dirt. That means you have to go beyond speed figures to discuss her and the quality of performances in general across surfaces.

Some people do an admirable job of that even when I disagree with some of what they have to say.

Some people insist on saying "she's slow" even after presenting all the data etc.... IMHO that is a preposterous point of view because we don't know how fast she would run with a legitimate pace if she likes dirt as much. But we do know that if she can run a 108 Beyer on synthetic with the typical slower synthetic pace, if she likes dirt she might be 5 or more points faster on dirt and that's damn fast for a mare.

We will have the answer to this come breeders cup day.

[Split Rock]

I find it interesting that someone wouldn't consider Zenyatta an all time great. I don't really have in depth knowledge of her races, Beyers, competition, etc, but going 20 for 20 and winning the Breeders Cup Classic should be enough to validate greatness.

Saying otherwise is simply ridiculous over analyzing.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by Split Rock

I find it interesting that someone wouldn't consider Zenyatta an all time great. I don't really have in depth knowledge of her races, Beyers, competition, etc, but going 20 for 20 and winning the Breeders Cup Classic should be enough to validate greatness.

Saying otherwise is simply ridiculous over analyzing.

Some would say that you are under analyzing.

[letswastemoney]

Originally Posted by Split Rock

I find it interesting that someone wouldn't consider Zenyatta an all time great. I don't really have in depth knowledge of her races, Beyers, competition, etc, but going 20 for 20 and winning the Breeders Cup Classic should be enough to validate greatness.

Saying otherwise is simply ridiculous over analyzing.

great for a female.

Her record doesn't compare to Cigar for example, who had no option but to face males in every start of his 16 win streak.

[Smooth Operator]

Originally Posted by letswastemoney

Her record doesn't compare to Cigar for example, who had no option but to face males in every start of his 16 win streak.

Yeah, he was facing some real killers in those races.

Like I said many times in the past, if the overrated Cigar would've come along a couple years later (with that group in '97), he would've been extremely lucky to put together a TWO race win streak…

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Split Rock

I find it interesting that someone wouldn't consider Zenyatta an all time great. I don't really have in depth knowledge of her races, Beyers, competition, etc, but going 20 for 20 and winning the Breeders Cup Classic should be enough to validate greatness.

Saying otherwise is simply ridiculous over analyzing.

some would disagree. the win streak is overblown. yeah, she's consistent, at beating mediocre horses.
as for the classic win, an historic moment, in a renewal that was lacking top synthetic horses. other than zenyatta that is.

winning a bcc doesn't make a horse great. ask volponi for one. was wild again great? arcangues? tiznow won it twice, i wouldn't even call him an all time great horse.

[Smooth Operator]

Originally Posted by Danzig

as for the classic win, an historic moment, in a renewal that was lacking top synthetic horses. other than zenyatta that is.

Um, for the 67th time, Euros dominated the race in '08 … beautifully and gloriously exposing the overrated Curlin.

Seeing that success, they brought over a couple more pretty good ones (TO, RVW) for the '09 edition … in an attempt to steal our big race again … and Z stepped up and made them all look like donkeys.

[Travis Stone]

Saying Curlin was overrated and exposed in the BCC is weak. He was clearly fading-out of top form, plus it's synthetics, which matters not when talking about fast dirt horses.

[classhandicapper]

I'm a huge Ghostzapper fan and think he was among the greatest horses I've seen in my lifetime, but he had one of the softest life time campaigns imaginable.

His entire reputation was made earning inflated Beyer figures (yes IMO a few were too fast, but it's a long discussion) while beating up total non entities racing a few times a year.

Then he was life and death against St Liam before he had even hit his best ride.

Then he won a great Classic, but while controlling the pace from the rail.

Of course I can make a better case for why he was great, but the point is you can't love Ghostzapper and also trash Zenyatta's campaigns over 3 years.

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by Smooth Operator

Um, for the 67th time, Euros dominated the race in '08 … beautifully and gloriously exposing the overrated Curlin.

Seeing that success, they brought over a couple more pretty good ones (TO, RVW) for the '09 edition … in an attempt to steal our big race again … and Z stepped up and made them all look like donkeys.

Gio Ponti made them look like donkeys as well.