Crist: The great distaffers..

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by CSC

Maybe it was a ploy to draw you into a discussion, you know how many times Personal Ensign shipped across the coast. Apparently 1 less time than Zenyatta will when she ships to CD later this fall.

Personal Ensign was a Grade 1 winner in just her second career start as a 2yo. She then suffered a major fracture preparing for the BC Juvenile Fillies (at Santa Anita) in a hind ankle that required several screws to stabilize.

Off for nearly a year, she returned at 3, and with just 3 starts under her belt and never having run further than a mile, she won the Grade 1 Beldame versus her elders at a mile and a quarter.

Her perfect 4yo season was highlighted by a start against males in the Whitney and the BC Distaff. Both of those races were on off-tracks. Both resulted in victories, not scratches.

While the 13 for 13 may not stand up to Zenyatta's 17 for 17, there is a big difference IMO between running at 2 and 3 and not starting until nearly 4 years of age. You'll say that the competition at 2 and 3 is easier, but I would say that it's much more difficult for a top class horse to maintain superiority (whether or unbeaten or not) in its division as it and its peers are developing (some improving, some regressing) over time.

Though in basic terms, there race records are similar, here's the essential difference between the two:

Personal Ensign's race record is one of progression, essentially each successive start tougher than the last. Considering the injury, an element of heroism prevails.

Zenyatta's race record is one of ennui, same old song and dance. A cloud of evasion hangs over it.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

Personal Ensign was a Grade 1 winner in just her second career start as a 2yo. She then suffered a major fracture preparing for the BC Juvenile Fillies (at Santa Anita) in a hind ankle that required several screws to stabilize.

Off for nearly a year, she returned at 3, and with just 3 starts under her belt and never having run further than a mile, she won the Grade 1 Beldame versus her elders at a mile and a quarter.

Her perfect 4yo season was highlighted by a start against males in the Whitney and the BC Distaff. Both of those races were on off-tracks. Both resulted in victories, not scratches.

While the 13 for 13 may not stand up to Zenyatta's 17 for 17, there is a big difference IMO between running at 2 and 3 and not starting until nearly 4 years of age. You'll say that the competition at 2 and 3 is easier, but I would say that it's much more difficult for a top class horse to maintain superiority (whether or unbeaten or not) in its division as it and its peers are developing (some improving, some regressing) over time.

Though in basic terms, there race records are similar, here's the essential difference between the two:

Personal Ensign's race record is one of progression, essentially each successive start tougher than the last. Considering the injury, an element of heroism prevails.

Zenyatta's race record is one of ennui, same old song and dance. A cloud of evasion hangs over it.

It's also worth noting that her win in the Beldame at age 3 came just 8 days after her prior stakes win in the Rare Perfume.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

It's also worth noting that her win in the Beldame at age 3 came just 8 days after her prior stakes win in the Rare Perfume.

Thanks. Didn't realize that.

That's pretty astounding, even back then, all things considered.

What are the odds Team Zenyatta takes a bold step and goes for the Pacific Classic, 21 days after the Clement Hirsch?

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

Thanks. Didn't realize that.

That's pretty astounding, even back then, all things considered.

What are the odds Team Zenyatta takes a bold step and goes for the Pacific Classic, 21 days after the Clement Hirsch?

Since Z has an allergy to the paint used in starting gates, she can't go into starting gates more than once every 26 days.

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

Thanks. Didn't realize that.

That's pretty astounding, even back then, all things considered.

What are the odds Team Zenyatta takes a bold step and goes for the Pacific Classic, 21 days after the Clement Hirsch?

21 days is the new 40 days in modern training. Just look at Quality Road's spacing.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up

21 days is the new 40 days in modern training. Just look at Quality Road's spacing.

It's a double edged sword because he has to win every race now.

Not sure if he really has physical issues that dictate such a schedule, but he certainly could have fit the Gulfstream Park Handicap, Oaklawn Handicap, Suburban, and Jockey Club Gold Cup in there and been a lot more memorable for some fans (even if he lost a couple).

But as you suggest, these guys running the show want another Ghostzapper, not another Skip Away.

It's almost as if the "aura" of fragility makes them better somehow.

[Smooth Operator]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

But as you suggest, these guys running the show want another Ghostzapper, not another Skip Away.

Please … GZ blows a horse like MM off the track.

Not to mention the fact that he could carry his speed ten panels against the best comp.

Jury still very much out for QR on that one…

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by Smooth Operator

Please … GZ blows a horse like MM off the track.

Not to mention the fact that he could carry his speed ten panels against the best comp.

Jury still very much out for QR on that one…

Who is MM that you refer to?

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by Smooth Operator

Please … GZ blows a horse like MM off the track.

I was commenting on Quality Road's schedule compared to Ghostzapper's and Skip Away's.

I was basically lamenting the way horses are campaigned nowadays.

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

Personal Ensign was a Grade 1 winner in just her second career start as a 2yo. She then suffered a major fracture preparing for the BC Juvenile Fillies (at Santa Anita) in a hind ankle that required several screws to stabilize.

Off for nearly a year, she returned at 3, and with just 3 starts under her belt and never having run further than a mile, she won the Grade 1 Beldame versus her elders at a mile and a quarter.

Her perfect 4yo season was highlighted by a start against males in the Whitney and the BC Distaff. Both of those races were on off-tracks. Both resulted in victories, not scratches.

While the 13 for 13 may not stand up to Zenyatta's 17 for 17, there is a big difference IMO between running at 2 and 3 and not starting until nearly 4 years of age. You'll say that the competition at 2 and 3 is easier, but I would say that it's much more difficult for a top class horse to maintain superiority (whether or unbeaten or not) in its division as it and its peers are developing (some improving, some regressing) over time.

Though in basic terms, there race records are similar, here's the essential difference between the two:

Personal Ensign's race record is one of progression, essentially each successive start tougher than the last. Considering the injury, an element of heroism prevails.

Zenyatta's race record is one of ennui, same old song and dance. A cloud of evasion hangs over it.

Great post. Too bad Zenyattards are incapable of understanding it, but oh well.

[RockHardTen1985]

What about Banshee Breeze? No one ever mentions her as one of the best, I am fairly confident she would have beat Rachel or Z.

From 7/25/98 through 11/06/99 she ran beyers of 102 or higher every single time. She held amazing form for 16 months. In this time she won 5 Grade 1's and was a close second in 3 others, 2 of those seconds came to Beautiful Pleasure, who was another great filly.

[blackthroatedwind]

You throw around great like nerf balls.

Rachel and Zenyatta would have drowned Banshee Breeze.

[RockHardTen1985]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

You throw around great like nerf balls.

Rachel and Zenyatta would have drowned Banshee Breeze.

Andy, based on what? Class, speed? I have BB pp's right here and it all looks pretty similar.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by RockHardTen1985

Andy, based on what? Class, speed? I have BB pp's right here and it all looks pretty similar.

If it makes you feel any better ... I'd probably take Banshee Breeze and the points.



She always fired ... and even her 3 defeats at the end were ok. She got beat giving Beautiful Pleasure 11 pounds at 10 furlongs in slop for the first one - Keeper Hill rode a good rail at Keeneland while BB was wide in the Spinster loss - the BC Distaff loss at Gulfstream wasn't bad either.

[RockHardTen1985]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

If it makes you feel any better ... I'd probably take Banshee Breeze and the points.



She always fired ... and even her 3 defeats at the end were ok. She got beat giving Beautiful Pleasure 11 pounds at 10 furlongs in slop for the first one - Keeper Hill rode a good rail at Keeneland while BB was wide in the Spinster loss - the BC Distaff loss at Gulfstream wasn't bad either.

THanks for posting this, I tryed 2 LOL.
Im kinda suprised a throwback like Serling would say Rachel and Z would have destroyed this one... I have a list of about 15 more just in the last 15 years... A thread is coming tomorrow.

[Gaining Ground]

was banshee breeze that much better than keeper hill? she was more consistent, but when both were on their game i dont think much separated them.

[Revidere]

Originally Posted by RockHardTen1985

THanks for posting this, I tryed 2 LOL.
Im kinda suprised a throwback like Serling would say Rachel and Z would have destroyed this one... I have a list of about 15 more just in the last 15 years... A thread is coming tomorrow.

Jersey Girl toyed with Banshee Breeze

[miraja2]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Rachel and Zenyatta would have drowned Banshee Breeze.

Wasn't Banshee Breeze's performance in the Apple Blossom in '99 more impressive than either of Zenyatta's trips there?
Of course, that doesn't have to mean your statement is incorrect, but Zenyatta doesn't exactly "drown" very many horses, and I think Banshee Breeze might be a whole lot better than some horses Zenyatta hasn't beaten by much.

To me, she also seems better than a couple of horses that beat RA this year. I'm not saying I would bet Banshee Breeze over those two, but it doesn't seem like that big of a stretch to compare her on even terms with those two. Does it?.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by RockHardTen1985

What about Banshee Breeze? No one ever mentions her as one of the best, I am fairly confident she would have beat Rachel or Z.

From 7/25/98 through 11/06/99 she ran beyers of 102 or higher every single time. She held amazing form for 16 months. In this time she won 5 Grade 1's and was a close second in 3 others, 2 of those seconds came to Beautiful Pleasure, who was another great filly.

As far as being an all-time great:

She lost the BC Distaff twice and the Kentucky Oaks, arguably her 3 most important races. Even though she was champion 3yo filly in '98, she wasn't much better than Keeper Hill when looking at their head-to-head matchups.

That said, I liked that horse, and on her best day would pose a serious threat to either of our the two racing now.

[Indian Charlie]

I put Smuggler in my top 5 all time greats list.