Excellent Angle: D Wayne Off

[eajinabi]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

I don't know what to tell you. If you want to believe the guy was a really good trainer, that is fine. As I said before, I don't know a single trainer that thinks he is a good trainer. Even back in the 1980s and 1990s, everyone would cringe watching his horses train in the morning. His horses would hobble by. You've never seen a guy whose horses were so sore. That is one of the reasons why everyone thinks he is so bad. He had so many sore horses and he refused to give them a break. A ton of them used to break down.

With regard to steroids, everyone was using them the last 15 years or so until they recently banned them. But the guys who started using them before anyone else, back in the early 1980s, had a huge edge. If you don't believe that, I don't know what to tell you.

By the way, Lukas didn't lose Gene Klein because he passed away. they had a huge falling out before before Klein passed away.

In the 80's and 90's Lukas had the creme of the crop stock as far as pedigree and money spent on horses. Its not like he made a 10k claimer into a derby winner. If that was the case I would support your accusation of Lukas using steroids.

Since you like to support Pletcher a lot, then maybe you dont realize he was Lukas assistant for years before being a big time trainer he is now. Is all of Pletchers knowledge in training from Lukas or a textbook?

[ateamstupid]

Originally Posted by eajinabi

In the 80's and 90's Lukas had the creme of the crop stock as far as pedigree and money spent on horses.

And that's what makes him a good trainer? He juiced his way to the top and got a bunch of great stock as a result. After his top assistants left, he hit the skids and he has no idea what the hell he's doing anymore.

[eajinabi]

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

And that's what makes him a good trainer? He juiced his way to the top and got a bunch of great stock as a result. After his top assistants left, he hit the skids and he has no idea what the hell he's doing anymore.

And that's what makes him a good trainer? - It certainly doesnt stamp him as a bad one.

Was it the juice or the assistants that attributed to his success? Which one is it? Or was it both and Lukas was just a face?

His training style is old and certainly cant compete with these trainers and the chemical labs. Jack Van Berg, Ron McCanaly were great trainers in thier heyday but they would be lucky if they even hit the board in modern times.

If Lukas juiced his horse in the 80's and 90's, then what is preventing him from doing it now?? He would certainly fit in perfetly as MOST trainers do it now.

[JerseyJ]

While I am a big fan of Lukas and much of that comes from the fact that when I first got into racing through books and articles many of them extensively chronicled Lukas including the book Three Strides Before the Wire about his quest for the Derby with Chris Antley and Charismatic. While he is not the trainer he once was, he is an all-time great who ran into the problem of losing his best clientele and probably his most crushing loss, his son Jeff from his stable which clearly affected Lukas and his stable.

Losing clients like Eugene Klein, The Lewis's, Overbrook downsizing, and The Thoroughbred Corporation hurts. On the other hand some of his clients now are willing to spend and getting him better horses (Westrock and Baker and Mack).

He'll never get back to where he was but to heap praise on a cheat like Pletcher and knock Lukas is wrong. And while certain trainers may not like guy or the way he trained his horses plenty of trainers I have spoken with respect Lukas and his impact on the game.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by JerseyJ

While I am a big fan of Lukas and much of that comes from the fact that when I first got into racing through books and articles many of them extensively chronicled Lukas including the book Three Strides Before the Wire about his quest for the Derby with Chris Antley and Charismatic. While he is not the trainer he once was, he is an all-time great who ran into the problem of losing his best clientele and probably his most crushing loss, his son Jeff from his stable which clearly affected Lukas and his stable.

Losing clients like Eugene Klein, The Lewis's, Overbrook downsizing, and The Thoroughbred Corporation hurts. On the other hand some of his clients now are willing to spend and getting him better horses (Westrock and Baker and Mack).

He'll never get back to where he was but to heap praise on a cheat like Pletcher and knock Lukas is wrong. And while certain trainers may not like guy or the way he trained his horses plenty of trainers I have spoken with respect Lukas and his impact on the game.

Lukas certainly did a lot of things right. If you were a young trainer back in the 1980s and you wanted to go to work for someone with the hopes of making it big one day, Lukas was definitely the best person to work for.

He might not have been a great trainer but he had all the other skills it takes to be successful. The guy was simply a winner. He had all the key ingredients. He was bright, charismatic, articulate, etc. He was a great salesman and he knew how to promote himself. He had great communication skills. He knew how to deal with owners and he knew how to get owners. He was really well organized and he ran a great operation. He did everything first-class.

I have to give the guy a lot of credit for getting to where he got himself. He did a great job of building that operation and he ran it like a successful CEO. I give him credit for that.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by eajinabi

In the 80's and 90's Lukas had the creme of the crop stock as far as pedigree and money spent on horses. Its not like he made a 10k claimer into a derby winner. If that was the case I would support your accusation of Lukas using steroids.

Since you like to support Pletcher a lot, then maybe you dont realize he was Lukas assistant for years before being a big time trainer he is now. Is all of Pletchers knowledge in training from Lukas or a textbook?

Part of Lukas' success was having the most money to spend and the creme of the crop horses. I totally agree with that.

With regard to his assistants, as I have stated in other threads, D Wayne was very good at hiring very good people. But he didn't teach these people how to train. He hired assistants that could run the show themselves. He hired the best people. Lukas' son was a great trainer. Jeff was a big reason for Lukas' success. Losing Jeff and all the other great assistants was a big blow to the operation.

As I've stated in other threads, Todd doesn't train anything like Lukas. They are polar opposites. Their whole philosophies are completely different.

And as I've said before, when you hear interviews with Todd or Kiaran McLaughlin and they are asked what they learned from Lukas, they never mention anything about training. They say they learned how to run a big operation and they learned how to get owners and that type of thing. They never mention anything about training.