NTRA Eclipse 50

[King Glorious]

A panel selected 10 champions from each of the past five decades along with one trainer and one jockey. They put the list out fans can vote for their 10 favorites from among the 50 horses. Well, 48 since two horses were picked for two decades.

Here's the complete lists:

https://www.ntra.com/wp-content/uplo...ndividuals.pdf

[Dahoss]

Zenyatta as a 2010-2019 horse is hilarious.

[King Glorious]

They have Spectacular Bid as an 80s horse.

[RolloTomasi]

No Go For Wand or Bayakoa but we get Silverbulletday and Paseana...OK

If this was Major League Baseball that would be the worst trade of all time...

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

No Go For Wand or Bayakoa but we get Silverbulletday and Paseana...OK

If this was Major League Baseball that would be the worst trade of all time...

Curious to know where you'd rank Go for Wand among the all-time female runners of the past 50 years? Dirt runners only.

[Alabama Stakes]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

No Go For Wand or Bayakoa but we get Silverbulletday and Paseana...OK

If this was Major League Baseball that would be the worst trade of all time...

Not sure how Go For Wand is not there. But then they just played Back Throated Wind into commercial on the Patriots game, so anything is possible. West LA Fadeaway also played earlier.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

Curious to know where you'd rank Go for Wand among the all-time female runners of the past 50 years? Dirt runners only.

50 years is too far back for me.

But mid-80s going forward what compares to a horse that was as fast as superstar sprinters Very Subtle and Safely Kept in the Test and only 9 days later as fast as Easy Goer was in the Travers when winning the Alabama?

And less than 2 months after that she was nearly as fast as Secretariat was in the Marlboro Cup when winning the Beldame.

Setting or pressing the pace in all 3 of those as well.

[Dahoss]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

They have Spectacular Bid as an 80s horse.

Point taken although the difference between his 1980 year and her 2010 year is night and day.

His 1980 year was about as good a year as you could have, no?

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

50 years is too far back for me.

But mid-80s going forward what compares to a horse that was as fast as superstar sprinters Very Subtle and Safely Kept in the Test and only 9 days later as fast as Easy Goer was in the Travers when winning the Alabama?

And less than 2 months after that she was nearly as fast as Secretariat was in the Marlboro Cup when winning the Beldame.

Setting or pressing the pace in all 3 of those as well.

Exactly what I say. Ran 1:21 then 2:00 4/5 then 1:45 4/5. Then knowing how good Bayakoa was, Go for Wand ran step for step with her. On the flip side, knowing how good Go for Wand was, I had to elevate Bayakoa higher than I had before.

I have her on top. I have Bayakoa #2.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

Exactly what I say. Ran 1:21 then 2:00 4/5 then 1:45 4/5. Then knowing how good Bayakoa was, Go for Wand ran step for step with her. On the flip side, knowing how good Go for Wand was, I had to elevate Bayakoa higher than I had before.

I have her on top. I have Bayakoa #2.

I was always impressed with Riboletta's transition to NY after running the table through the Winter/Spring/Summer in California. Put away an in-form Beautiful Pleasure easily in a very fast Beldame of her own.

She came out of the BC injured and I suppose the loss takes her off the all-timers list, but that was some run of victories oddly punctuated by a misstep on the grass at Golden Gate Fields.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by Dahoss

His 1980 year was about as good a year as you could have, no?

That was a near-mythologic campaign, east and west, all sorts of track records, a world record or two, and capped with a ceremonial walkover in the Woodward.

Sadly, the fantasy was ruined a bit when I found out that Spectacular Bid was actually entered in the Jockey Club Gold Cup that year, too. But he was nursing a sore suspensory and for some inexplicable reason, Buddy Delp was actually contemplating running him, standing him in ice all morning long on race day. Mercifully he called it off at the 11th hour, but what a disaster that could have proved to be if he tried to run (especially since he was always suspect at 12 furlongs).

[Dahoss]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

Exactly what I say. Ran 1:21 then 2:00 4/5 then 1:45 4/5. Then knowing how good Bayakoa was, Go for Wand ran step for step with her. On the flip side, knowing how good Go for Wand was, I had to elevate Bayakoa higher than I had before.

I have her on top. I have Bayakoa #2.

Off topic but I just saw your updated signature. Gamine as HOY this year? I’d be interested in hearing an explanation on how you see Acorn, Test and BC Filly and Mare Sprint earns a horse HOY.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by Dahoss

Off topic but I just saw your updated signature. Gamine as HOY this year? I’d be interested in hearing an explanation on how you see Acorn, Test and BC Filly and Mare Sprint earns a horse HOY.

My first option is to always go with the horse that I think is the best horse during the year. Then I look at resumes. If the best horse and horse with the best resume aren't the same horse, I try to look and see who has the biggest advantage. For example, Authentic had a really good year. Had he won that Preakness, I'd give it to him. But his resume to me wasn't much better than Gamine's and I think she's the better horse.

In 2005, I thought Ghostzapper was the clear best horse to run in this country even though it was only one race. In my mind, the precedent has been set many times over with giving a horse a championship based on one race in this country. Singspiel won an Eclipse and never actually won a race in the United States. But if Arazi can be a HOY finaiist off of one race, so can Ghostzapper. I was very tempted to give it to St. Liam that year because his resume was much better but in the end, I decided that Ghostzapper was just so much clear the best horse that I went with him.

In the end, it's not an exact science so I flipped a coin.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by Dahoss

Point taken although the difference between his 1980 year and her 2010 year is night and day.

His 1980 year was about as good a year as you could have, no?

His 1980 season is arguably the best ever and would definitely have earned him horse of the decade for the 80s.

[Dahoss]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

My first option is to always go with the horse that I think is the best horse during the year. Then I look at resumes. If the best horse and horse with the best resume aren't the same horse, I try to look and see who has the biggest advantage. For example, Authentic had a really good year. Had he won that Preakness, I'd give it to him. But his resume to me wasn't much better than Gamine's and I think she's the better horse.

In 2005, I thought Ghostzapper was the clear best horse to run in this country even though it was only one race. In my mind, the precedent has been set many times over with giving a horse a championship based on one race in this country. Singspiel won an Eclipse and never actually won a race in the United States. But if Arazi can be a HOY finaiist off of one race, so can Ghostzapper. I was very tempted to give it to St. Liam that year because his resume was much better but in the end, I decided that Ghostzapper was just so much clear the best horse that I went with him.

In the end, it's not an exact science so I flipped a coin.

Obviously it’s not an exact science and if you said she was the best sprinter I think you might have an argument. How about Swiss Skydiver? She was over the top in the Breeders Cup but had beaten Gamine before that. Her resume was much better.

And if it’s “best” horse what about Nashville? He’s been absolutely brilliant. I know you love you some Gamine but she ran 3 really good races, two good races and had two medication overages. She’s not even 3 year old filly of the year, let alone HOY.

[King Glorious]

Nashville is an interesting horse. I think he could be in the conversation for best horse and I'm really looking forward to the Malibu Stakes later this month. But his resume won't come close to being good enough.

I don't discriminate against sprinters. I actually think that in an era where the vast majority of races are eight furlongs and under and looking at who the main sires are, it's harder to dominate shorter races than it is longer races. The pool of good runners is deeper, I think. Most people give more credit to the horses that do better at the classic distances and I get that. I just don't agree with it. I think if you tell me that the race is 9f, I'm picking Swiss Skydiver to beat her. Anything under that and I'm picking Gamine. I think Gamine has a much better chance of beating Swiss Skydiver at 9f than the other way around.

Having said that, if Swiss Skydiver had finished better in the BC, i would have agreed with her as champion 3yo because her resume would have been enough to overcome what I thought was Gamine's brilliance.

[Dahoss]

She just wasn’t brilliant the one time they ran against Swiss Skydiver.

I’m giving you a hard time but if Nashville doesn’t cut it due to resume how does Gamine get it over Swiss Skydiver in your eyes?

Ones resume was much better than the other

[goodcopy]

I know it's the late 60's but some how when mentioning all time horses the "Doctor" and his trainer John Nerud has to be given his and there due

[Alabama Stakes]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

Curious to know where you'd rank Go for Wand among the all-time female runners of the past 50 years? Dirt runners only.

Realistically, She would be favored against any distaff runner. Speed of lightning, roar of thunder.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by Dahoss

She just wasn’t brilliant the one time they ran against Swiss Skydiver.

I’m giving you a hard time but if Nashville doesn’t cut it due to resume how does Gamine get it over Swiss Skydiver in your eyes?

Ones resume was much better than the other

If Nashville were to win the Malibu, it would give him one grade one win and one graded stakes win. I could believe he's the best horse but that's just not enough if I feel like Gamine is right there with him and she has a much better resume than him.

When it comes to her against Swiss Skydiver, I do concede that Swiss Skydiver has the better resume but not by much. SS has won two G1 races. Gamine has three. While the Preakness might be the single biggest race on either resume, I don't think it was the best on either. I think the single best effort was by Gamine in the BC and the second was by Gamine in the Acorn and the third was by Gamine in the Test. It can be argued that in Swiss' two biggest tests, she lost (Oaks and Distaff). An on the board finish in the Distaff might have been enough for me to put her on top but that didn't happen due to her horrible start. I just feel like Gamine > Swiss on talent is bigger than Swiss > Gamine on resume. I wouldn't have any issue with anyone voting for Swiss as top 3yo filly. I have zero issue with anyone voting Authentic or Monomoy Girl as HOY. I don't think any of them would be an injustice. I just feel like Gamine was the most brilliant horse I've seen this year and she has the resume to compete with the other top contenders.