Offshore Belmont Odds and props

[Dunbar]

5Dimes has:
(California Chrome must run in Belmont for action)

California Chrome wins Belmont -120
Field wins Belmont -120

Bookmaker has it

2014 BELMONT STAKES - WINNER (CHROME MUST START)
CALIFORNIA CHROME +104
ANY OTHER RUNNER -132

Bookmaker also has a line on whether Chrome will start:
2014 BELMONT STAKES - WILL CALIFORNIA CHROME RUN ?
YES -830
NO +536

And here's Bookmaker's Belmont line. (bets are "live" even if horse doesn't start, which is why Chrome is +145 in this line.)

CALIFORNIA CHROME +145
WICKED STRONG +525
DANZA +625
RIDE ON CURLIN +1215
SAMRAAT +1415
TONALIST +1215
SOCIAL INCLUSION +1815
INTENSE HOLIDAY +1615
COMMANDING CURVE +1415
KID CRUZ +2050
CANDY BOY +3550
COMMISSIONER +3050


--Dunbar

[robfla]

If you like CC, this prop is great value:

2014 BELMONT STAKES - WINNER (CHROME MUST START)
CALIFORNIA CHROME +104
ANY OTHER RUNNER -132

regardless of who is facing him, he will be 1:2 or less - probably 1:5

[dellinger63]

Originally Posted by robfla

If you like CC, this prop is great value:

2014 BELMONT STAKES - WINNER (CHROME MUST START)
CALIFORNIA CHROME +104
ANY OTHER RUNNER -132

regardless of who is facing him, he will be 1:2 or less - probably 1:5

I would have 'guessed' even money or better

[Dunbar]

Originally Posted by robfla

regardless of who is facing him, he will be 1:2 or less - probably 1:5

Originally Posted by dellinger63

I would have 'guessed' even money or better

I think the odds will most likely be somewhere in between those two predictions. Here's a list of the last 11 "tries", and their closing odds in the Belmont:

1979 Spectacular Bid .30 3rd
1981 Pleasant Colony .80 3rd
1987 Alysheba .80 4th
1989 Sunday Silence .90 2nd
1997 Silver Charm 1.05 2nd
1998 Real Quiet .80 2nd
1999 Charismatic 1.60 3rd
2002 War Emblem 1.25 8th
2003 Funny Cide 1.00 3rd
2004 Smarty Jones .35 2nd
2008 Big Brown .30 DNF

Only Funny Cide, War Emblem and Charismatic closed at of 1:1 or greater.

Funny Cide had Empire Maker to deal with, and Empire Maker took a lot of the betting money. As a need-the-lead front runner, War Emblem was particularly suspect at a mile-and-a-half, and Charismatic always had his doubters.

Only Spectacular Bid, Smarty Jones, and Big Brown closed at 1:2 or less.

California Chrome has not dominated like the Bid, Smarty Jones and Big Brown did.

--Dunbar

[JJP]

Originally Posted by robfla

If you like CC, this prop is great value:

2014 BELMONT STAKES - WINNER (CHROME MUST START)
CALIFORNIA CHROME +104
ANY OTHER RUNNER -132

regardless of who is facing him, he will be 1:2 or less - probably 1:5

He's 3-2 right now at Bookmaker so taking +104 on Cal Chrome is not a good bet. The 12 furlongs just adds a lot of randomness. There's been some forgettable horses who scored at big odds in the Belmont. Could easily happen this year. He will be nowhere near 1-5 or even 3-5.

[parsixfarms]

I may be missing something, but I would have anticipated that Tonalist is no worse than third choice in this race and that his odds would be no more than 6-1.

[tywizard]

Despite the hype I was thinking he'd be behind Chrome, Wicked Strong, Danza and Commanding Curve - Potentially ROC if Rosario stays with him.

[parsixfarms]

I would think there is little chance that Rosario rides Ride on Curlin in Belmont. They have already been discussing possible replacements.

I could see where it is possible that Danza might be a shorter price (given Derby odds and finish, and Pletcher being the trainer); I cannot see Commanding Curve going from being 37-1 in Derby to single digit odds in this race.

By way of comparison, in last year's Belmont, Freedom Child (last year's blowout Peter Pan winner) was the 8-1 third choice, and Golden Soul was 11-1. IMO, there is no question that Tonalist brings far more to this year's Belmont than Freedom Child did last year.

[tywizard]

Originally Posted by parsixfarms

I would think there is little chance that Rosario rides Ride on Curlin in Belmont. They have already been discussing possible replacements.

I could see where it is possible that Danza might be a shorter price (given Derby odds and finish, and Pletcher being the trainer); I cannot see Commanding Curve going from being 37-1 in Derby to single digit odds in this race.

By way of comparison, in last year's Belmont, Freedom Child (last year's blowout Peter Pan winner) was the 8-1 third choice, and Golden Soul was 11-1. IMO, there is no question that Tonalist brings far more to this year's Belmont than Freedom Child did last year.

I agree on Freedom Child vs Tonalist but disagree with comparing Golden Soul and Commanding Curve. The latter has a ton of potential. And people love closers. I don't see anyway Wicked Strong goes off at a bigger number.

[parsixfarms]

Originally Posted by tywizard

I agree on Freedom Child vs Tonalist but disagree with comparing Golden Soul and Commanding Curve. The latter has a ton of potential. And people love closers. I don't see anyway Wicked Strong goes off at a bigger number.

I would expect that Wicked Strong and Tonalist, especially given common running line in Florida, to be close to co-second choices.

[tywizard]

Originally Posted by parsixfarms

I would expect that Wicked Strong and Tonalist, especially given common running line in Florida, to be close to co-second choices.

Continuing the comparisons...Wicked Strong is a lot like Revolutionary...Similar style and nicely bred...He went off as 2nd choice last year.

I also think the Derby form held up well in the Preakness so people are likely to project that to the Belmont Stakes.

I happen to like Tonalist but I suppose if he were second choice I'd take a long look at wagering on Wicked Strong.

[declansharbor]

Based on his win in the Peter Pan, Tonalist would be the clear-cut 2nd choice in wagering if there's an off track, no?

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by JJP

He's 3-2 right now at Bookmaker so taking +104 on Cal Chrome is not a good bet. The 12 furlongs just adds a lot of randomness. There's been some forgettable horses who scored at big odds in the Belmont. Could easily happen this year. He will be nowhere near 1-5 or even 3-5.

At Bookmaker, you lose your bet if CC gets hurt between now and the race and doesn't run. At the other place, if the horse doesn't start the bet is cancelled. So I don't know if I would say that Bookmaker is a better bet. Last year you would've gotten burned at Bookmaker if you bet I'll Have Another.

[Dunbar]

As of this afternoon (5/27):

5Dimes:

California Chrome must run in Belmont for action
Sat 6/7 California Chrome wins Belmont +105
5:00PM Field wins Belmont -135

"+105" means odds of 1.05 to 1.
"-135" means you bet 135 to win 100 (payoff is 235)


Bookmaker:

2014 BELMONT STAKES - WINNER (CHROME MUST START)
92001 CALIFORNIA CHROME EV
92002 ANY OTHER RUNNER -125


2014 BELMONT STAKES - WINNER (ALL IN BETTING) -- you lose if your horse doesn't start
92063 CALIFORNIA CHROME +105
92064 WICKED STRONG +725
92065 TONALIST +725
92066 COMMANDING CURVE +805
92067 RIDE ON CURLIN +805
92068 SAMRAAT +2050
92071 KID CRUZ +3050
92072 SOCIAL INCLUSION +4050
92073 COMMISSIONER +4050
92074 MATUSZAK +4050

--Dunbar

[robfla]

As mentioned earlier, I am kind of surprised of the odds where "he must start". I still think the race day odds will be much lower. 3/5 or less.

[cakes44]

Oh he'll be 1/5. Problem is, there's 3-4 horses in there that would be life and death in a 90 BSF maiden race. By the time the race starts, he'll be tough to bet against in the top spot. It will probably be cold exacta time.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by cakes44

Oh he'll be 1/5. Problem is, there's 3-4 horses in there that would be life and death in a 90 BSF maiden race. By the time the race starts, he'll be tough to bet against in the top spot. It will probably be cold exacta time.

He won't be anything close to 1-5 unless we get a lot more defections. Tonalist, Wicked Strong, Commanding Curve, and Right on Curlin will all get play. Those odds that Dunbar posted from Bookmaker should be in the ballpark if those horses run. CC will be around 4-5, Wicked Strong 6-1 or so, Tonalist 7-1 or so, Commanding Curve 8-1 or so, and Ride on Curlin 8-1 or so.

If CC was 1-5, that would mean all those other horses would be around 20-1 apiece. That's not going to happen.

The big offshore books are always in the right ballpark on the odds. If they weren't they would go out of business. They're not going to give you even money on a 1-5 shot.

[ranger5830]

Chrome was only 5-2 in the derby, and 1-2 in the preakness. I haven't looked, but I would have to think it would be highly unusual (if not unprecedented) for a preakness winner to go off at a higher price in the belmont than he did in Baltimore, especially a horse looking for the triple crown. And while I certainly understand that sports books are not in business to lose money, even money seems like excellent value relative to what his off odds will be on the tote.

[JJP]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

At Bookmaker, you lose your bet if CC gets hurt between now and the race and doesn't run. At the other place, if the horse doesn't start the bet is cancelled. So I don't know if I would say that Bookmaker is a better bet. Last year you would've gotten burned at Bookmaker if you bet I'll Have Another.

I saw the Bookmaker Yes/No prop several hours after the Preakness. The "Yes" was -135. They've taken a lot more "No" money than yes on him winning.

[Dunbar]

Originally Posted by Dunbar

As of this afternoon (5/27):

5Dimes:

California Chrome must run in Belmont for action
Sat 6/7 California Chrome wins Belmont +105
5:00PM Field wins Belmont -135

"+105" means odds of 1.05 to 1.
"-135" means you bet 135 to win 100 (payoff is 235)

As of 6/2, the "No" money keeps nudging the win odds higher:

California Chrome must run in Belmont for action
Sat 6/7 101 California Chrome wins Belmont +110
5:00PM 102 Field wins Belmont -140

--Dunbar