Tampa Bay Downs

[Calzone Lord]

1996 takeout: 19% WPS - 28% all exotics

2001 takeout: 18.9% WPS - 25.9% all exotics

2011 takeout: 17.5% WPS - 18% Daily Double, 18% Pick 3, 18% Pick 4, 20.5% exacta, 25.9% trifecta


In 15 years time - you went from an exacta takeout of 28% to 20.5%... big-time drop for such a high-churn bet.


Lower takeout increases handle, increased handle leads to better purses, bigger betting pools, and more interest in racing. That leads to a better racing product and growth.


Considering how mind-bogglingly too high the takeout is everywhere - raising takeout will always have the exact opposite impact.

Southern California has twice raised their takeout in the last 8 years.

The exotic takeout has gone from 20.18% in 2003 to 23.68% today.

When they raised the takeout on exotic wagers from 20.18% to 20.68% in the year 2003 --- it had me so angry that I wrote the only Letter to the Editor I've ever sent the DRF.

http://www.drf.com/news/letters-editor-215

The So. Cal takeout raise last winter was MUCH steeper than the one I freaked out about in 2003.


It wasn't long ago that Tampa Bay Downs was an old laughing stock track that offered horrid racing and did disasterously bad in terms of handle. Now, Tampa Bay Downs out handles winter tracks such as Oaklawn, and Fairgrounds ... and they crush places like Arlington Park, Golden Gate, Turfway, and Calder.

Tampa is the only track in America during my time following horse racing that has taken takeout reductions seriously and made a steady march downward.

To everyone else - they either don't matter, or they're tried as a marketing gimmick on bets like like Pick 4 that offer no real churn potential, or political forces have cock-blocked them from reducing rates in a manner such as Tampa.

At this rate - If Tampa sticks with the program - by the year 2021 things will start looking pretty attractive for bettors. Get the takeout under 10% on a high-churn wager - and you'll see incredibly explosive growth. That's where the finish line and the glory is.

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by Calzone Lord

1996 takeout: 19% WPS - 28% all exotics

2001 takeout: 18.9% WPS - 25.9% all exotics

2011 takeout: 17.5% WPS - 18% Daily Double, 18% Pick 3, 18% Pick 4, 20.5% exacta, 25.9% trifecta


In 15 years time - you went from an exacta takeout of 28% to 20.5%... big-time drop for such a high-churn bet.


Lower takeout increases handle, increased handle leads to better purses, bigger betting pools, and more interest in racing. That leads to a better racing product and growth.


Considering how mind-bogglingly too high the takeout is everywhere - raising takeout will always have the exact opposite impact.

Southern California has twice raised their takeout in the last 8 years.

The exotic takeout has gone from 20.18% in 2003 to 23.68% today.

When they raised the takeout on exotic wagers from 20.18% to 20.68% in the year 2003 --- it had me so angry that I wrote the only Letter to the Editor I've ever sent the DRF.

http://www.drf.com/news/letters-editor-215

The So. Cal takeout raise last winter was MUCH steeper than the one I freaked out about in 2003.


It wasn't long ago that Tampa Bay Downs was an old laughing stock track that offered horrid racing and did disasterously bad in terms of handle. Now, Tampa Bay Downs out handles winter tracks such as Oaklawn, and Fairgrounds ... and they crush places like Arlington Park, Golden Gate, Turfway, and Calder.

Tampa is the only track in America during my time following horse racing that has taken takeout reductions seriously and made a steady march downward.

To everyone else - they either don't matter, or they're tried as a marketing gimmick on bets like like Pick 4 that offer no real churn potential, or political forces have cock-blocked them from reducing rates in a manner such as Tampa.

At this rate - If Tampa sticks with the program - by the year 2021 things will start looking pretty attractive for bettors. Get the takeout under 10% on a high-churn wager - and you'll see incredibly explosive growth. That's where the finish line and the glory is.

what are your thoughts on what a high takeout does to the sport, overall?

[freddymo]

The purses at TB suck what are you talking about they race for popcorn and peanuts. TB takeout might be the cause of a bunch of decent things but consider that many a horseman have decided to use it instead of GP or FG.

[Travis Stone]

Tampa Bay Downs is one of the best-run racetracks in America.

[phystech]

Originally Posted by Travis Stone

Tampa Bay Downs is one of the best-run racetracks in America.

Then why are their purses so crappy?

[Scav]

Originally Posted by Travis Stone

Tampa Bay Downs is one of the best-run racetracks in America.

You are out of your mind.

Their racing office absolutely sucks there, and as phystech said, all these gains they have had in wagering, and not a single purse increase.

[paulo537]

Originally Posted by Scav

You are out of your mind.

Their racing office absolutely sucks there, and as phystech said, all these gains they have had in wagering, and not a single purse increase.

Not true.

They raised purses in Feb 2001 by 6%.

[NTamm1215]

It's a matter of perspective. Horsemen may see problems with Tampa Bay Downs but it's great for bettors.

[JohnGalt1]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

what are your thoughts on what a high takeout does to the sport, overall?

Those guys in Pennsylvania say we don't notice or care about take out rates.

What are you trying to do---prove them wrong?

[Rudeboyelvis]

Originally Posted by phystech

Then why are their purses so crappy?

The purses are crappy because they can get away with it. They've hollowed out a niche where lower level horses can get on the grass for 16K all winter instead of getting their heads handed to them @ GP or FG - same goes with the dirt - good luck filling 8K N3L's twice a day at GP.

It is convenient to Ocala and South FL so you've got stock all around that can ship in, and as a result the fields are huge...

Finally, there is no incentive to increase the purses because there is NO COMPETITION from December to April - once the northern tracks open, trainers flee... by late April, there is usually less than a third of the stalls are full.

I'd like to believe that takeout has something to do with their success as Doug alludes to - You've got basically the same product all summer long at Suffolk, yet not a fraction of the handle.

Bettors can choose better horse racing at GP, FG, - with more formful/classier horses, higher profile trainers/connections, etc - yet Tampa continues to make a killing on a vastly inferior product, racing-wise - I don't know how the message to the industry can be anymore clear - It's the takeout, Stupid

[OldDog]

And they make a killer Cuban sandwich.

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by Rudeboyelvis

The purses are crappy because they can get away with it. They've hollowed out a niche where lower level horses can get on the grass for 16K all winter instead of getting their heads handed to them @ GP or FG - same goes with the dirt - good luck filling 8K N3L's twice a day at GP.

It is convenient to Ocala and South FL so you've got stock all around that can ship in, and as a result the fields are huge...

Finally, there is no incentive to increase the purses because there is NO COMPETITION from December to April - once the northern tracks open, trainers flee... by late April, there is usually less than a third of the stalls are full.

I'd like to believe that takeout has something to do with their success as Doug alludes to - You've got basically the same product all summer long at Suffolk, yet not a fraction of the handle.

Bettors can choose better horse racing at GP, FG, - with more formful/classier horses, higher profile trainers/connections, etc - yet Tampa continues to make a killing on a vastly inferior product, racing-wise - I don't know how the message to the industry can be anymore clear - It's the takeout, Stupid

Wouldnt an increase in handle automatically increase purses? I thought most tracks have the takeout split % wise between the horsemen(purses) and the track.

[Rudeboyelvis]

Originally Posted by Antitrust32

Wouldnt an increase in handle automatically increase purses? I thought most tracks have the takeout split % wise between the horsemen(purses) and the track.

Lori, I don't know that the two are mutually inclusive - maybe Calzone can answer that..

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by Rudeboyelvis

Lori, I don't know that the two are mutually inclusive - maybe Calzone can answer that..

I guess an increase in handle wouldnt automatically make an increase in takeout if the takeout rate was reduced...

it would depend on the amount of handle increase.

[Calzone Lord]

Originally Posted by freddymo

The purses at TB suck what are you talking about they race for popcorn and peanuts. TB takeout might be the cause of a bunch of decent things but consider that many a horseman have decided to use it instead of GP or FG.

Freddy, do you know what a MSW purse at Tampa Bay Downs was in 1996? $4,200

The Sam Davis had a $25,000 purse - it's now a Graded Derby prep.


My father trained horses at Tampa in the 70's ... he told me Finger Lakes was unquestionably a cut above Tampa. Fort Erie was several cuts above.

Thistle Downs was a cut above Tampa.

Tampa was just a notch above places like Waterford Park and Commedore (the old Erie bullring)

[Calzone Lord]

Originally Posted by phystech

Then why are their purses so crappy?

The track is only 12 to 15 years removed from being River Downs.

How do their purses look when compared to River Downs and Suffolk?

[Calzone Lord]

Here's the chart of the 1997 Sam Davis:




* Feature race on a Saturday

* 12 horse field

* $33,760 in the WPS pool

* $15,360 in the exacta pool

* $28,515 in the Tri pool

* $7,455 in the Super pool (no one who played the super even had the first two numbers right!! It paid of on 7-ALL-ALL-ALL)



Here's the chart of this years Sam Davis:

http://www1.drf.com/drfNCWeeklyHorse...0212&raceNo=10

* Feature race on a Saturday

* 10 horse field

* $480,374 in win pool

* $300,762 in exacta pool

* $210,485 in trifecta pool

* $116,765 in superfecta pool


You had MSW races with purses of just $4,200 - that had $5,300 bet in the exacta pools. Sorry if you don't like where the purses are now .. but that place is growing better than any other racetrack bar none.

[Cannon Shell]

Tampa Bays purses arent higher because the TB HBPA is controlled by hacks from Suffolk who dont want purses to get too much higher because they know wont be able to compete and even more legit trainers will want to show up for better money. They have no objection to increases to the stakes purses because they are mostly won by ship-ins and with the handle increasing they have to use the money somewhere.

[NTamm1215]

It's also worth noting that part of what makes Tampa such a well run racetrack is how the staff manages the post times perfectly. That is an instant handle driver when done properly.

[Calzone Lord]

Originally Posted by NTamm1215

It's also worth noting that part of what makes Tampa such a well run racetrack is how the staff manages the post times perfectly. That is an instant handle driver when done properly.

Yes - if they did that with a 28% takeout - they might rack up an extra $78 in handle over the course of a card.