Mockery of Sport?
 

first of all I love horseracing, and I love a good underdog, however I am afraid MTB winning may have made a mockery of the sport and the derby for many.The horse with the slowest of any type of speed figure, with the worst perceived "class", getting his ass beat at Sunland, with a trainer who was 1 for 32 for the year. And not only winning but destroying 18 other of the best of the best available. so poorly looked at breeding and conformation wise that he sold for $9500? Believe me I have owned and raced mostly claiming thoroughbreds for 30 years and I love the idea of this guy beating the heavy head millionaires but I think this will be one of the most single telling events to destroy the handle of racing for years to come.

lol

no way man. it's not a mockery at all. and i doubt it'll affect handle either. sometimes a long shot wins-no one quit going to oaklawn this year when flat out won, or when win willy won either.

hmm. say when win willy won three times fast. :D

As far as the speed figures, I gotta think Beyer & his followers would have been a lot more content had Summer Bird been the bomb that won.

i'd have been more content too ;)

why? beyer's been around this sport longer than a lot of folks have been alive. he knows the occasional bomb comes in, and he knows that sometimes horses run an inexplicable figure that doesn't jibe with anything they've done before-or what they do after.

it's not the end of the world that another 50-1'er won this thing.

Mockery? It's horse racing! Anything can and will happen.

exactly. i doubt giacomo winning a few years back killed the sport or reduced handle.

His life's work is based on these numbers. He talked about the last out Beyer as a strong predictor of performance in the Derby the day before the race. Don't you think he would have been happier with a Summer Bird victory? I'm not bashing him, but let's get real.

seeing as how he picked IWR, i'd think he would be happier had the horse not scratched.

most folks went with previous mud experience and bet the farm on FF. that wasn't based on beyers.
if beyers don't correlate from one surface to another, then i'd imagine they aren't gospel when going from a fast track to a sloppy one.

OK, if you say so.

besides that, most years he would be right-beyers do point out the winner. don't people usually criticize beyer for not picking the horse with the highest beyer going in to be the winner, and more often then not, that horse wins the race? not the horse he ends up choosing?

didn't they? everyone was laying on FF, saying how he had won in the slop at fairgrounds...they completely discounted the layoff, the lack of a longer race, and went just by the surface with him.

i doubt beyer gets hysterical and throws out all his stuff and retires. bombs come in, it happens. it happened yesterday, big deal.

While I didn't bet Giacomo, one can make a strong case he should've never been 50-1 and realistically was more of a 20-1 shot. Mine that Bird had the look of a 200-1 shot. HUge differemce.

Most people that bet yesterday didn't have a clue enough to read the form & even figure out that FF had won in the slop before.

perhaps. but many of them also may have bet him because larry jones was 'due'.
but i know a lot of the folks on here kept bringing up friesan fire. i also know that everyone who knows me was asking about my pick for the race. so, i would assume that many who went to the track also asked regular race fans they know about picks-i'd imagine the word got out on the jones colt.

To say that "most folks went with previous mud experience and bet the farm on FF" is just not right. And Beyer definitely would have looked better if Summer Bird had been the bomb that won...at least he acknowledged that it was possible for SB to get into the super.

FF went off the favorite. he achieved favoritism as soon as the skies opened up, before i want revenge scratched. all i read on here, and heard on t.v., was about his ability to win on the slop. but it's not right? how else explain why so many bet him? not one other horse was pointed out that i know of as being a known mudder.

Will you sign for me? ;)

Beyer makes the figures, not everyone else....and he said the day before the race that last out Beyer's were historically a great indicator of performance in the Derby. That's what I'm saying. At least Summer Bird had a good last out Beyer. What is so hard to understand? It's not a bash, just an observation.

but he's still right in that regard.

Bloodhorse reprts that Mine that Bird was purchased privately for $400,000 by the connections.

yep. they bought from the original owner who had purchased him for 9500. nice roi for both parties.

Well, of course I can never prove it, but I find it impossible that of the miliions that were wagered to win on FF, that "most" of the people that went up to the window and made their bet were thinking "previous mud experience, yes! I'll bet the farm".

I agree, again...not bashing, just making an observation on this Derby.

Most everyday players don't have their opinions published across the country, host chats on DRF, and have a speed number named after them. But maybe you're right.

Why because these things don't ever happen? You had another 20 claimer in the race.. John Herny was a claimer.. Come on They couldn't give Sunday Silience away as a yearling..

Look I am as surprised as anyone to see the horse move up so much but I doubt it does anything long term to the game.. The track was weird and the colt jumped up.. Let's hope the colt comes back clean, because if he didn't that would seriously harm the game.. Imagine if one the the suspected Chemists were the listed trainer, that colt would need a transfution of blood with the testing that would be done after the race

It sometimes seems lost on people on the internet, less so ( shockingly ) in the flesh, as to WHY some people MIGHT " have their opinions published across the country...etc.....etc..."

I can see that I'm going to be turned into a Beyer basher in this thread if I continue...God forbid you make an observation about a race. Jeez.

Don't try to make yourself into a victim. People are responding to YOUR comments. If you don't want to, or can't, back them up, then maybe you shouldn't have made them. If you can back them up, feel free to do so, but the " woe is me " stuff is beneath you.

No doubt.

since you and i seem to be in agreement, i'm confused a bit by you quoting my post, rather than someone who thinks yesterday is bad long term.

I don't understand why it always comes down to the anonymous internet angle throwdown in every thread. I have plenty of good friends that I argue or disagree with in person all the time. To be honest with you, you seem a bit obsessed with this angle, and I don't really get it. I don't think I've said anything on here that I wouldn't say to you or someone else in person, although I guess I do acknowledge that a lot of people do get out of control on here.

this is no problem at all, my wife took the 8 horse!

ca-ching!

You missed my point. You directed this to some sort of " Beyer was wrong " angle, which maybe you didn't even mean, and then seem to wonder why people reacted that way. That's all. If you disagree.....explain it to us.

As far as the internet......I spend my days with the public at the track and talk to people all the time. Sometimes agreeably, and sometimes less so, but the exchanges are far more civil and even-handed than they are on the internet. I am not trying to point a finger at you, honestly, I am speaking generally. If you spent a month in my shoes I can promise that you would get it.

This is like the movie Caseys Shadow.

It wasn't a "Beyer was wrong" angle...what I said was that my guess was that Beyer would have been happier with a Summer Bird victory instead of a Mine that Bird victory, obviously because of each horses previous Beyer speed figures, and also because of his comments before the race about BSF's been a good indicator of performance in the race, etc, etc. I thought this was pretty logical, and I was just making that observation. Now, obviously you guys are friends, so maybe you can correct me if I am mistaken. Like most regular Joe type players, I read and listen to Beyer and other experts (such as yourself) with interest, and with the goal of improving my knowledge. The result yesterday was quite surprising to everyone, and those of you in the spotlight shouldn't take it as an attack when things like yesterday happen, and people ask questions or make observations.

So, do you think Beyer would have felt better about a Summer Bird victory than a Mine that Bird victory, or am I totally off base here?

Thanks...

I do find the internet a harsher form of communication . It's just more difficult to emote . In any event , FF had good races in the slop and that drew a lot of money . Makes sense to me .

After just looking at the tgraph rotw seminar on the derby it was pointed out that MTB was one of the very few horses that could run a new top . However it was pointed out that he would need a huge improvement which was unlikely . hehe.

Have none of you ever seen a race like this?

A horse who had previously won races running on/near the front end gets a bad break, stumbles, or is squeezed back, drops a couple of lengths back behind the next-last horse and you say "well, he's toast." Yet lo and behold, same horse finds a new dimension, and comes roaring down the stretch to win, or just miss. No one knew he had it in him, least of all the rider and trainer. Doesn't happen every day, or every month, but we have all seen it happen.

So yesterday it happened in the Kentucky Derby. Not going to happen again in our lifetime, most likely. Especially not with a patented Calvin Bo-Rail unimpeded passage on the best part of the track. The races that Mine That Bird won to be named champion 2yo in Canada were won by being forwardly placed, within a few lengths of the leader. Nobody could have logically predicted that he was capable of that kind of finishing kick from the next county. And although his pedigree hinted that he would move up on mud, he hadn't had the opportunity to display it. A sort of perfect storm of circumstances.