Pino's quote
 

"Believe me, I didn’t think he was going that fast."

I like Hard Spun, but I don't like that quote. I could live with it if the work was 59 or so, but 57? What does that say about his internal clock? Shouldn't the average jockey know when he just worked a horse in 57 & change?

Pino is the only thing that worries me about Hard Spun.

Pino is going to panic and send this ****er early.....

I wish they had a bet on that

Going out in 33 just seems crazy to me. I don't see how they can expect the horse to run 36 or slower in a 20 horse stampede when he just went 33 on his own.

LOL :D

Oh wait...

lol lol lol

They don't expect him to run 36 or slower early.

I applaud Jones for getting him ready for what he is about to do. He is going to be pumping around there and will still have the lead when they come around the turn.

Then it will get interesting.

If that is the case then he's toast but at least the work makes sense.

I'm not following, what is Jones trying to do?

I think he is getting him ready for some PRESSURE by putting some speed into him before he sends him on the run of his life.

I could be wrong though. Feel free to add your opinion. I am just speculating on how it will pan out.

It is easy for me to sit back and say I would take Cowtown Cat, Hard Spun, Teuflesburg, etc... off the pace and let them make the overused "one good run."

But this guy Jones has never been to a Derby. He was just at Ellis Park last year. Trained for 25 years and hasn't even been close.

This is his shot man. Pino the same. If he currently is thinking that they will lay off the pace and let the race shape up, I think by Friday night he will change his tune.

I know one thing. If I were him, I would want to see that ****er out front and unhampered by the 19 other runners. If he really has that one horse, would he want him crowded in with 10 others at the turn?

He will send and lead at the turn, possibly the 1/8th pole.

I think this happens a lot in the Derby.

"By god, I've got one shot and I'll be damned if I want to watch the ****er never placed better than eighth. Just give him a shot to win. Put him out front."

What happened to the old statement about trying to rate him at Oaklawn? Now it's just a toss?? Like I said after the Oaklawn trip, Did Pino loose that race?, o no, he did what the trainer said to do, try to rate him. Boy how things change in a hurry, and how they toss the old excuses.

:rolleyes:

Just to clarify, I don't have a big problem with the time of the work, just the fact that Pino apparently didn't know how fast he was going.

I would think that after that many rides, you would be able to work a horse for 5 furlongs & be able to come back & say, "that was a 57" or something like that. Maybe I'm in a dream world, but this is a long race & I want my jockey to know when the pace is a 57, or a 1:09, etc, etc...and respond appropriately.

I think he meant what he said in the sense that it didn't feel like HS was working that hard. . .

Yeah, that could be...but I sure don't like the way it came out. Hopefully you're right.

Assume that a particular jock is accustomed to getting on a particular horse and he becomes familiar with the horses stride is relation to effort put forth.

Now, what if, on a particular day, the horse is putting forth the same effort YET going faster? (It feel better; it likes the track; etc.)

There are 2 factors in play here:

1) the speed they're actually travelling -- and here the jock should be able to distinguish between faster and slower speed

2) the speed in relation to the effort --- not so easy a task as one could undertand how a jock would conflate speed with effort.

But, you're probably correct, PINO is incompetent.

You can easily prove this by getting out there on a track or road bike, WITHOUT a speedometer, and readily predict your speed on any given day.

You could, in a perfect world.

I'm not saying he's incompetent, I was just surprised by the quote. Maybe it just didn't come out right. I wish he would have just said, "it was a great work" and leave it at that. Now I'm questioning his internal clock a little bit. There's no doubt that some jockeys clocks are better than others. I always thought Gary Stevens was one of the best.

Dude, the guy's won f*cking 6000 races in his career, he knows what he's doing, and just because Larry Jones doesn't have the clients that (0-20 in the Derby) Todd Pletcher does, doesn't mean he doesn't know what he's doing.

I heard the same arguments about Smarty Jones' connections in 2004, and Barbaro's trainer last year, and some even questioned Laurin's handling of Secretariat.

If the horse is good enough, he'll win. If he isn't, he won't.

Thats what all pinheads say when they work one too fast. I didnt know he was going that fast, he did it easy. Usually followed by a flop, what a moron

I didn't say he didn't know what he was doing. Read the post. I said that I was surprised that he didn't know how fast he was going. That's it.

Yeah, it's not quite that simple, i'm afraid...especially in the Derby.

I think there's a difference between knowing what you are doing at Delaware Park on a Tuesday and on the first Saturday in May after you have given about 200 interviews and brought all your friends and family there with every last one of them believing you will win.

If Hard Spun does exactly what I think he will do, Jones and Pino won't be the first to succumb to it or the last. Hard Spun is no Smarty Jones.

I think Elliot could have ridden him backwards and that horse would have done the exact thing he did.

Without a doubt, I would send him to the front and pray. You think Jones and Pino are just sitting there saying, "man, we got this. we know exactly what we are doing?"

The Derby is a powerful animal...and it has made more than a few trainers and jockeys do things differently than they normally would.

Larry Jones knows, the guy is sharp

Pino should know better

Adore the Gold 2: Electric Boogaloo

I'm definitely not saying they can't or won't finish in the money with these tactics.

I just think they are sending and letting the chips fall as they may.

If Hard Spun is superior, he will skip away and win.

All this stuff about the pace not being very tough is what I am debating. These guys are sending in my opinion. And the pace will be hot.

This "taking back" stuff is for the press.

After that work this horse has no shot. He's done. Might as well ship him to Delaware and run him in the ***** Fart Stakes.

This I agree with; however the horse rated kindly in the Lanes End off a bullet work without much work from Pino.

Jones is a very sharp trainer and Pino is a competent jock. I'd rather have him on there than someone new.

Totally incorrect. The work has nothing to do with it. If he's short, it's because of the poor decision not to run in between the Lanes End and the Blue Grass.

Also recall the track was a highway yesterday, it was almost a second fast at 5F than normal.

Of course. That work is just the last straw in a handful of them. The connections have to arguably be one of the worst owner-trainer combos in the history of the game. It's laughable what they've done to this horse.

Oh, I agree, the owner sucks. He sticks his nose in way too much. I think you're cutting down Jones a little unfairly though; the guy is a good horseman and unfortunately due to the nature of the business must sometimes succumb to the owner's decisions.

Yeah Jones is a good trainer and really he's not to blame. I can't say he deserves criticism because really who would risk losing a horse like Hard Spun? It would be nice to see Jones punch the owner in the throat after the race though.

That race at TWP doesnt translate. Big problem with the poly is going to be prepping a derby horse on it. Its crazy to train a horse over poly, then run at CHD. I dont think Hardspuns run in the Lanes End can be used as a gauge, and I dont think hes a superior animal. I think he will finish up the track. 10th or worse

Jones is cowboy enough to punch him in the throat

I think Street Sense has a huge advantage training at Churchill. It's going to be interesting to see how the Keeneland shippers fare over the course. I'm not convinced they'll be fit enough to contend down the stretch.

How fit was Giacomo when he won?

I don't that being 'fit' is the real concern... how they handle the CD surface might be, though.

I'd say he was pretty fit.

Damn right he is!

Check the replay of the Lecomte if you need a quality dirt start. I'd be shocked if he finished 10th or worse...

Izzie's Halo hasn't exactly lit up the track since then. Makeithapencaptain came back to run 3rd at Sam Houston. Teuflesberg was the best horse he beat there and he had a poor start that compromised him. It was a pretty poor field he beat there.

Man what's with all the HS/connections negativity ??

The horse goes 57 3/5, so we jump on Pino and Porter.
If the horse had a bad work then you probably trash HS.

I think Porter was honnest, horse don't like it we won't send him. You have around 10 horses that have no business running this weekend, but their connections believe in their horse so they send them.

I think this comes down to all you people have HS scratched from your tickets and now with his great work today you have to find other reasons to keep HS off your tickets.

I just don't feel like bashing a jock and an owner who have been waiting years to get their first starter is right. Put yourself in their shoes and think about it. It's nice ot have new faces every year.

I'm not bashing at all, what I am trying to do is exactly what you asked. "Put myself in their shoes."

I would send and I think that is what they will do. If Hard Spun loses, I'm not going to think any less of Jones and Pino. It will be on the horse. They are going to give him the best shot to win and I think it will be on the front.

Along with about 4 or 5 other horses whose connections feel the same way.

My argument is the pace. Some think it will be slow if Hard Spun and company are out there, but I doubt this assertion.

I think it is racehorse fast, because the ones on the front are going to be running racehorse times trying to get out there.

Was thinking of picking him "on top"...but starting to question that move.
On pedigree alone...he's one of the top five
his connections scare me the most going into the race.

i believe i saw the other day that the last four years straight, a first-time derby trainer won the thing.

why did i suddenly have a flash back to risen star?? some horses are good enough that they do their best in spite of (rather than because of) their handling. is he one of them? guess we'll find out saturday.